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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cap'n Kobold" data-source="post: 6885159" data-attributes="member: 6802951">As I said in my post, I was specifically addressing the tiering comment, and the apparent justification based upon the example given in the post I quoted.The level of narrative control, apart from how that relates to the comparative power on spellcasters vs non spellcasters, is a different matter entirely. I'm generally staying out of that discussion for the reason at the end of the post. Bards only get access to tools other than musical instruments based upon their background: the class doesn't the best access to them. Unlike Rogues, they cannot gain expertise with Thieves' Tools either.They are very good contributors in combat indeed, however this is generally through the use of support abilities that improve their allies' capabilities, either directly or by reducing opponent's capabilities. There is no balance clash because their powers can't overshadow the non-casters for example: they rely on the non-casters particularly.And this brings us to one of the trickiest sticking points of this sort of balance discussion: actual cooperation between players. If the Rogue goes through five locks before hitting one he can't handle and the Wizard steps up and Knocks it, is the wizard really outshining the Rogue? Spells can blast large areas, covering several opponents, but generally the more martial classes deal higher damage against a single, tougher opponent.Questions of balance are generally only an issue where the area of expertise of one class is overshadowed by another class. Having Knock, Invisibility and Spider Climb on your spell list isn't going to overshadow a Rogue without the non-caster capabilities (like actual skills) to back them up.I haven't been following that discussion, but it seems a skewed comparison: The sheer number of spells (and feats, and other "explicitly defined player powers") that 3.5 ended up with means that of course 5e will look less by comparison.Picking out individual powers that do or do not indicate more explicit descriptions between editions isn't going to work: you'd have to look at the method of wording that is used for the basis of the powers' descriptions throughout each edition.</blockquote>

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