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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6886334" data-attributes="member: 996">I did read our post:&nbsp;&nbsp; You claimed scaling, not guidelines. &nbsp;When you think about it, neither is nerfed at all.&nbsp; You just start casting spells in the one case, and stop using the bow (switching to javelins or other thrown weapons for closer-range attacks) in the other.&nbsp; Now, in 5e, I suppose you could, if you were to apply comparable levels of intentional contra-optimization (because that really is what we're talking about here, not un-optimized characters, but intentionally gimped characters), take an Archery-Style fighter and give him an 18 STR and 10 DEX, you'd be nerfed a little harder, since you can't re-train style.So you're splitting hairs between the meaning of 'martial' vs 'non-caster' vs 'magic-using' or whatever?&nbsp; Pointless.&nbsp; There are 5 non-magic-using sub-classes in the PH vs over 30 that use magic.&nbsp; All 5 of them are focused on DPR.&nbsp; That represents a radical decrease in available options, from 4 classes covering 3 roles, with over 20 builds and hundreds of maneuvers.&nbsp;&nbsp; How does quibbling over the meaning of 'martial' in any way excuse that?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6886334, member: 996"] I did read our post: You claimed scaling, not guidelines. When you think about it, neither is nerfed at all. You just start casting spells in the one case, and stop using the bow (switching to javelins or other thrown weapons for closer-range attacks) in the other. Now, in 5e, I suppose you could, if you were to apply comparable levels of intentional contra-optimization (because that really is what we're talking about here, not un-optimized characters, but intentionally gimped characters), take an Archery-Style fighter and give him an 18 STR and 10 DEX, you'd be nerfed a little harder, since you can't re-train style. So you're splitting hairs between the meaning of 'martial' vs 'non-caster' vs 'magic-using' or whatever? Pointless. There are 5 non-magic-using sub-classes in the PH vs over 30 that use magic. All 5 of them are focused on DPR. That represents a radical decrease in available options, from 4 classes covering 3 roles, with over 20 builds and hundreds of maneuvers. How does quibbling over the meaning of 'martial' in any way excuse that? [/QUOTE]

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