I'm getting Edition War fatigue

[Pig Champion]

Honestly, if everyone just ignored the 4e haters, that might do the trick. It might be mildly infuriating, and it could lead to some odd moments - like that whole sandbox thing- but it's probably the most pragmatic and workable soluiton.

It would certainly take a really deliberate, uniform approach though, and people willing to help newbies avoid falling into the same trap.

This ignores the fact that most of my edition warry experience as a newbie poster has come from 4E players and not 3.x/PF players who hate 4E.

The term 4E hater is edition war propaganda anyway. I get called that all the time...When I play both editions pretty evenly.

As much as you like to think 4E players are in the right, I wouldn't put your house on it.

 

[Mistwell]

There was a brief time when edition warring was banned.

I think it would be great to renew that practice.

There may have been a time when there was something to be gained from the edition warring, but that gain has already been realized, and it seems all downhill from here.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Oddly enough, I don't think you're being fair, either.

I'm just not inclined to blame this all on one side. I don't think the edition war would exist if people stopped hating on 4E, but that doesn't mean this all falls on the heads of the haters.

I vertainly think that WOTC made moves that aliented people, but let's be frank here- the 4e haters have exagerated and read into that process time and time again, in a way which proves that they were looking to start a fight.

Why shouldn't they start a fight? The game they liked used to be the 600lb gorilla in the room, with all the benefits that came from it. They had that taken away from them.

I don't deny that 4e supporters have started edition war threads and contributed to the general conflagration.

You're going too far, and you're not being fair about who is doing what- this may be what people interpret endorsement of 4e as, but it's not fair to insist that people who play 4e own all that baggage.

I don't think 4E players own all that baggage. That baggage is the result of the situation that was created when 4E was released. Whether or not we own the baggage doesn't negate the fact that the baggage exists.

This may be the perception amongst 3e players, but it's not the reality amongst 4e supporters, and I say this as somebody who probably does qualify as a member of the league of 3e dustbin relegators. That isn't the norm, and it's certainly not the norm on these threads.


Counting variant playstyles, and other systems, i'd say the tent is a lot more diverse than you're implying. And again, I don't think that it's fair that you expect 4e supporters to wear what is clearly the perception of 3e supporters.

I'm not talking about 4E supporters, I'm talking about 4E edition warriors. There's a big difference. Also, it has nothing to do with fairness. Life isn't fair. Thanks to situations beyond our control, simply stating that you like 4E offends people, and you have to deal with the reality of that.

You can talk about ownership of the concept as an abstract ideal, but in pragmatic terms, this abandonment just plain isn't there. People feel abandoned, but the facts don't support their claims.

The game hasn't abandoned them, the situation has. 3E was the big dog in the RPG world. It had the most players by a huge margin, and it had the full force of the D&D name behind it. This is no longer true, and people who prefer 3E have lost this among other benefits of being the undisputed heavyweight champion of the RPG world.

I disagree with your central claim. I agree that 4e fans should simply abandon the threads, but I don't agree with your reasoning.

4e fans, mostly, don't want 3e relegated to anything, they either like 3e, or hate it and don't care if other people play it. Some hate it and think people would have more fun playing 4e than 3e, but we're a minority or rather, rarely dare to suggest such on forums liek this.

Again let me say that I am quite critical of 3e, and often encourage people to make the change. But I'm not the norm, and it's unfair to claim that everyone, or even most people, are like me. And I would certainly not seek to deprive 3e fans in any real way.

I think you're basically taking the perception 4e haters have, and insisting that 4e supporters wear it. They don't have to, and it's not fair or constructive to demand that they do.

Anti-4e zealots need to come to terms with their baggage, and reocognise that they're being unfair, and using excuses to keep venting when they should be getting over their resentment and moving on themselves. At no point does this involve them moving on to a dustbin or a prior era- quite the contrary. Only when they accept that things have changed, can they make the most of the still substantial comunity they clearly have.

You misread my motives here. I'm just taking an academic view of things from the outside. I don't remember you from previous edition wars here, but I'm sure others remember me as one of the more agressive people on the pro-4E side. I agree with you that anti-4E need to get over themselves and get on with their lives. Unlike you, I don't discount that they have a rightful axe to grind, or that they are the only guilty parties here.

 

[Mark]

This ignores the fact that most of my edition warry experience as a newbie poster has come from 4E players and not 3.x/PF players who hate 4E.

Most of the conflict in the last year that I have seen seems to spring from this well: People who have played for a while but don't like some aspect or only prefer some aspects and not others, people who used to play and have decided not to play anymore, and people who are starting to play and are overwhelmed by the rules but find the community somewhat daunting or unreceptive.

The term 4E hater is edition war propaganda anyway. I get called that all the time...When I play both editions pretty evenly.

I fall into the first category of the ones I mention above and am regularly berated (mind you by only a handful of regular posters, certainly not the majority of the community by a long shot) for not liking the game in the way in which some others like it, or I get dismissed as a hater for not thinking as highly of the aspects I do not believe make for a very good game. Since the release of the latest edition I have played it a dozen times or so, and played the second to latest edition about the same or a bit more, and played dozens of other games including previous editions many times as well. I've not found there to be any shortage of people who will play any of them. I do see a very vocal minority who will throw around the word "hate" or "hater" as a way to marginalize the opinions of others but those days and posters are dwindling. People who are seeking compromise and accord don't refer to others in the extreme, as haters or such monikers.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I guess I should chime back in here. Ironic that my post has become a war in and of itself. *shrugs*

I think the edition war has just evolved. At the beginning it was people who liked 4e vs people who didn't.

Now, most of the people who REALLY didn't like 4e have moved on to the Pathfinder message boards or stay holed up in the 3e rules forums. They realize that the general boards tend to focus on 4e more often than not and don't care to discuss it. With a couple exceptions.

I think that there are a group of people, however, who switched to 4e against their own better judgment. They switched because their friends did or they didn't want to be left behind. So now, they are officially in the "4e players" camp. But that doesn't mean they don't still have a list of complaints about 4e a mile long. They aren't really so much happy with the game they are playing as....not hating it enough to stop playing it.

It's that second group that causes most of the edition warring. They often start threads that say "Why doesn't 4e do this well?"

The thing is, now 4e is designed purposefully enough that I feel comfortable answering these questions with "Because that's not what it was designed to do". Unfortunately, there are many people out there who want it to be able to do anything. And when they attempt to pound the square peg into the round hole it causes problems.

IMHO, this is the major cause of most edition war threads.

 

[Jasperak]

I wonder what would happen if a forum for EWTs opened up over at CM?

 

[Mistwell]

I wonder what would happen if a forum for EWTs opened up over at CM?

I think housing it there, rather than here, would be an improvement.

 

[billd91]

What I am seeing is so many people who jump to the guns so fast as soon as they see someone who says anything bad about the game they play. This did not happen when there was just 3.x edition.

Back then I could say "The duskblade class is broken I hate it" and we could move on.

Now if I said "I dont like this mechanic its horrible." I would get yelled at my post edited by an admin for trolling and all kinds of horrible things.

I think you've got an important point here. It is true that before 4e, people were quite vocal with criticisms of parts of 3e. There could be some sniping back and forth, but the board generally dealt with it. So what changed?

ENWorld, while having enough general RPG interest to spawn discussions about just about anything, was fundamentally a 3e-focused board. That focus was probably what brought most people here before 2008. What little edition warring there was between 2e and 3e, reflected the fact that this was a 3e board. Earlier editions could slag off 3e on Dragonsfoot.

The change was the release of 4e. Now, the board's identity started to change from being a 3e board to a mixed board. Suddenly, everyone's skin was a lot thinner. Defender mentalities, both among 3e fans about WotC marketing, and among 4e fans about criticism of the new game, sprang up and still drive a lot of edition war threads. Before the split identity, 3e criticism was tolerated reasonably well compared to post-4e's announcement. Since then, criticism of either tends to irritate, particularly when it's coming from someone now identifying more on the other side. They're no longer part of the family trying to make it better. They're outside the tent whizzing in (to use a Lyndon Johnson paraphrase).

I don't think the solution to the problem in partition into more forums. That won't stop the bad behavior since every thread is a partition itself. The solution is for everyone to examine their own personal behavior and fix it, not respond to trolls, not feel that they have to fight back against what they feel are "wrong" but may be honest, and not get involved in threads if they cannot behave themselves.

 

[Wormwood]

Most of the conflict in the last year that I have seen seems to spring from this well: People who have played for a while but don't like some aspect or only prefer some aspects and not others, people who used to play and have decided not to play anymore, and people who are starting to play and are overwhelmed by the rules but find the community somewhat daunting or unreceptive.

Really? Most of the conflict I've seen has been instigated by implications that those who play [X] edition are hidebound and irrational, while those who prefer [X+1] edition are intellectually inferior.

And let's be honest for a moment: the second slander has been raised *far* more often (even in freakin' .sig files) than the first.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Really? Most of the conflict I've seen has been instigated by implications that those who play [X] edition are hidebound and irrational, while those who prefer [X+1] edition are intellectually inferior.

And let's be honest for a moment: the second slander has been raised *far* more often (even in freakin' .sig files) than the first.

I'm no fan of 4Ed as my personal choice of D&D, but I'm thinking the snark and insults are pretty evenly split, and its really the minority of the 2 sides. IME, most of the conflict has arisen from people who have encountered those minorities in opposition to their position, been irritated, and have carried that irritation over into other threads where they overreact to mere criticism as if it were a personal attack.

IOW, a lot of it is simply misplaced aggression.

I will agree with you 100% in one aspect, though. I've seen a few people post insulting anti-4Ed slogans in their sigs. I haven't seen anyone post an anti-3Ed slogan in their sig.

(Not saying it hasn't happened- just haven't seen it at all.)