I'm sick to death of dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes!

Can you say "dated characterization"?

So, when will elven retreat end?

Already happened in FR. And it simply was never an issue in 90% of worlds I've seen (published or not).


So, when will the halflings quit eating the party's rations?

Have you even seen the 3e halfling?


So, when will the gnomes invent the next big thing?

I haven't even seen a Tinker type gnome in years. For every world that treats them as inventors, there's one that treats them as fey.


So, when will the dwarves take back their mountain strongholds?
This one has some merit. But most dwarves have other things on their plates. Specifically, drinking, whoring, and reading Wulf's story hour. (Yes, I'm a shameless Dwarf fan)
 
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Henry: Ok, yes, it is exactly like not wanting to buy the car if the manufacture puts the pedal in the same comfortable position that it has always been in.

I think that's the point.

Well not exactly, but its halfway there. You see, a car and RPG are both vehicals, but we drive them for entirely different reasons. My wife is saying, "I don't play RPG's to be comfortable." My wife is saying, "When I take trips in my imagination, I'm not just commuting back and forth to the same place." My wife is saying, "When I RP, I want it to be just a little bit... dangerous. I want to cover new ground. I want it to go places that not only I've never been, but I've never even thought of going."

So sure, when you buy a car, buy one that is comfortable. But 'safety' isn't exactly as high a priority in an RPG as a car.

And another thought to the Dark Sun debate - if the demihumans in Dark Sun were so darned original, why did they have to name them Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Face it, all they did was take the tradiational sterotypes and give them new paint jobs. And feral halfling barbarians wasn't even a new concept in D&D - they'd appeared in Dragon article prior to that I'm fairly sure. Heck feral jungle dwelling halfling cannibal barbarians isn't even a new concept in real life. Can you say Pygmies?

The whole idea was to make sure that these new concepts would stay safe and familiar and things wouldn't get too scary and strange.
 

Canis said:
Can you say "dated characterization"?

Yes.


Already happened in FR. And it simply was never an issue in 90% of worlds I've seen (published or not).

But no elven council has decreed it such. I want a better source than what Ed Greenwood says.

And they're weenies for retreating anyway.


Have you even seen the 3e halfling?

Lidda is hot. And the only other halfling I've seen was the one my character filled him up with bad mexican food and lobbed him via catapult at the enemy castle. The resulting explosion was wonderful.


I haven't even seen a Tinker type gnome in years. For every world that treats them as inventors, there's one that treats them as fey.

I didn't say tinker gnome. I meant "gnome."

And if they're treated like fey then they should retreat with the elves.


This one has some merit. But most dwarves have other things on their plates. Specifically, drinking, whoring, and reading Wulf's story hour. (Yes, I'm a shameless Dwarf fan)

It has a lot more merit than you'd care to admit.


Ulrick
 

My problem isn't with dwarves, elves, gnomes, etc. per se. It's with treating demihumans in general as humans with kewl p0werz, or even roughly stereotyped humans with kewl p0werz. The absolute inability to see nonhumans played as anything more than power packages was a large part of the reason I started playing human-only back in the 2e days.

If D&D didn't let you play whatever you wanted, this might be excusable, as most demis in fiction aren't that inhuman either. Their main coolness factor is their rarity, something that quickly gets lost when you can play an elf whenever you felt like it. Failing that, I'd want some clear sense of otherworldliness from my demihumans, or at least a solid sense of atypical thinking. It doesn't necessarily need to be The Way Things Would Be In Real Life, but playing dwarves as just short, alcoholic, warlike humans, or elves as arrogant, spoiled, rich-kid humans makes me wonder why not just play an appropriate human type.

So it's not necessarily that I want other funky metatypes. Or that I inherently loathe the basic ones. I just want my demihumans, whatever race they may be, to be different enough from humans to warrant playing them for the challenge, as opposed to for the bonus abilities.
 

Ulrick said:
In my home brew world, I've gotten rid of elves, gnomes, halflings, adn dwarves.

I just got tired of these races and their themes being regurgitated over and over again.

So, when will elven retreat end?
So, when will the dwarves take back their mountain strongholds?
So, when will the halflings quit eating the party's rations?
So, when will the gnomes invent the next big thing?

It just gets old.


Ulrick

Bravo! Right on the mark! (As an aside, it sounds like your homemade world might be a far sight better than 95% of the stuff that's published. Even sight unseen, I'd rather give you $30 for a copy of your world than $30 to some publisher so I can get Fantasy World Setting #74 that includes Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, and Gnomes. )
 
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Celebrim said:
If the demihumans in Dark Sun were so darned original, why did they have to name them Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Face it, all they did was take the tradiational sterotypes and give them new paint jobs...The whole idea was to make sure that these new concepts would stay safe and familiar and things wouldn't get too scary and strange.

My thoughts exactly. There's only two possiblities regarding "altered" demi-humans:

1. They aren't really altered: "Look, dwarves in my world have dyed mohawks!" :rolleyes:

2. They aren't really dwarves, elves, halflings, or gnomes anymore. In which case, why call them such? It'd be like a setting designer saying the following: "We have this really innovative tribe of warlike desert nomads in our setting! Instead of being nomadic, they live in houses. They also are gentle pacifists. Finally, they don't live in a desert; they live in a jungle." (And you call them "warlike desert nomads"?) :confused:
 
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Pansy Dwarves and Elves

And another thing! Why are there 1st level dwarves and elves? "Hi! I'm an elf and I'm a century old when I start adventuring, but I'm a first level ranger just like that human who is 1/5 my age . . . and I get FEWER SKILL POINTS." Same with dwarves.

One of my biggest problems with dwarves and elves in fantasy games is how they're, basically, emasculated. They're pale versions of their source material. It's insulting to the body of literature surrounding these mythical entities, I feel.
 

Greetings!

Heh, in my world, I have Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. I don't think anyone who knows much about my world wouldn't say that it wasn't an interesting, detailed, imaginative world. I also have numerous other races that are quite prominent throughout the campaign, such as elephant people, hippo people, wolf-people, deer-people, as well as Ogres, Trolls, tiger-people, and several very unusual, unique races.

Elves in my campaign are distinctly different from humans, and are generally entirely superior creatures. They are majestic, lordly beings. Wood Elves are more subdued, but they are still obviously enchanted creatures of magic, and very different from humans, or anyone else. Elves have never retreated, but they have had entire kingdoms broken to the yoke of slavery, rape, and fire. But the elves have never retreated, and in fact are very proud, even arrogant, and ambitious and self-willed.

Dwarves have experienced savage wars, and have lost several ancient mountain kingdoms, but others have prospered, and new ones are being founded. Meanwhile, many dwarves have also migrated into human communities, and have fully integrated with human society, complimenting human communities very well. Some populations of dwarves have molten steel for blood, and can breath fire, while other tribes of dwarves regenerate, and have numerous enhanced earth or fire properties. There are sophisticated dwarven kingdoms, and there are also more primitive, savage dwarven kingdoms that live in rugged mountain kingdoms to the far north, where they perpetually fight huge wars with giants, trolls, and beastmen.

Halflings are a durable race, who have a unique culture of their own, but they have also migrated to other realms, and have adapted to different climates and cultures. Some Halflings live in bucolic, Edwardian romantic environments, while others have become very urbanised and live in sophisticated cities, adopting many aspects of the host culture with their own. Still other Halflings are barbarian tribes and live in the forests, either in an African Masai manner; a Celtic manner; or a forested Germanic manner. There are entire populations of educated, urbane halflings that live as slaves to sophisticated human kingdoms. Meanwhile, out in the distant east, there are wicked kingdoms of humans and trolls that keep herds of Halflings as slaves and food. The Halflings are raised to be illiterate and stupid, and barely able to even speak. These Halflings are kept in herds, and watered, fed, and eaten as needed. Whole clans are used in breeding programs to make Halflings that favour certain coloration or general traits. They are used extensively as agricultural and mining slaves, as well as for domestic and urban use.

The other races, of course, are even more diverse and strange. It seems to me that a Game Master can make any and all such races interesting and vivid. There doesn't seem anything wrong with such races, but one must remember to play them with depth, character, and flavour. They have to be unique, interesting, and special. They have to be detailed, and played well. Doing so consistently will not only build respect from the players for the races, but also repsect for the Game Master's world integrity, and the races themselves, as distinct, interesting races.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Ulrick said:

I didn't say tinker gnome. I meant "gnome."

And if they're treated like fey then they should retreat with the elves.
Ummm.. why would that be? I'm sorry, but that statement struck me as more guilty of the topic than Elves, Halflings, Gnomes, and Dwarves are usually guilty of. "I want originality! And if gnomes are fey, they should act this way, like elves do"

*brief blank stare of confusion*

I mean, isn't it bad enough that people are vilifying anything that has the name 'Elf', 'Gnome', 'Dwarf', or 'Halfling' attached to it, regardless of it's content?

And, I don't recall who it was -- but seriously, saying that Dark Sun's Halflings were unoriginal because the "trite" halfling race had been completely redefined from the bottom up in a way that halflings had never been presented in a D&D format in a way that strongly resembled a real-world civilization? That's just asinine. I give them points for doing something that resembled a real-world civilization, because at least then you know that race's society is plausible.

I dunno,then again, I see Elves differently than most, I think. To me, elves are about 85% indistinguishable from humans (aside from some cosmetic differences) to humans. To the elves themselves, they see the differences. The differences are self-evident, they couldn't even put it into words. Halflings and Gnomes, very very different. My idea of gnomes wouldn't know illusion or an invention if one flew up, landed on their shoulder, and exploded. They are blatant, unapologetic kleptomaniacs, however, who look remarkably like 4-year old humans. (Most frequent gnomish quote "Mine!")
 

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