Imbued Summoning and Swarms

[roske]

Hi,

I am in a debate with a fellow player concerning the rules for Imbued Summoning (PH2) and Swarms. I have a 15th level Druid summoning a Fire Elementite Swarm (SPC). It would be cool to pop such a thing down on a Green Dragon the party is facing with either Greater Magic Fang or Metal Fang thrown on it to automatically do its swarm damage + its fire damage, also having the dragon be susceptible to its distraction attack.

Below is an exert from our email discussion. Phil is the player taking the position that Imbued Summoning cannot be used on a swarm.

I am further wondering if I can summon a swarm directly into an enemy's hex, especially very big critter, without causing an AoE. I guess a Ref save could be called for, although I don't see it as really necessary.

The game is Saturday and will have to get the DM to make a call. However, I would like to get some more opinions.

Does Imbued Summoning applied to swarms break the game?

On 7 February 2011 20:08, Philip wrote:
>
> "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of
> creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the
> exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms,
> patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a
> hive mind."
> Types & Subtypes :: d20srd.org
>
> A touch spell *is* a single target spell. Besides, there's nothing to
> touch. That's why a swarm is immune to weapon damage (well, that depends on
> size). You've got a point about imbuing working on a summon spell that
> summons multiple creatures (though one could imagine being able to touch
> multiple creatures, but a swarm is effectively untouchable). BUT, of your
> buffs of +4 STR, +4 CON, and Magic Fang, ONLY the +4 CON would have any
> effect: a swarm does only Swarm damage and Swarm attacks, it does not make
> natural melee attacks. Besides, you can only imbue a summon spell with a
> single buff. Even a feat that would let you cast two buffs for the price of
> once cannot circumvent that limitation. If, however, you summon the swarm
> before the encounter, it can benefit from any of the area buff spells that
> either of us cast.


i guess
Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

i still think the imbued summoning is about effecting the spell being
summoned and is not intended to represent the caster having to touch
the creatures being summoned, since it does not effect the range of
the summoning spell. i think it changes the summoning spell being cast
and does allow for swarms to be effected by touch spells.

you are correct about the augmented summoning.

 

[Sekhmet]

Your summoning spells gain an element of surprise. You can
summon creatures that come into existence with the benefi t
of a spell such as invisibility or bull’s strength.
Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, Spell Focus
(conjuration).
Benefi t: When you cast a spell from the summoning
subschool, you can choose to grant the summoned creature
the benefi t of any spell of 3rd level or lower you can cast that
has a range of touch. You cast the spell you wish to grant the
creature (using a prepared spell or a spell slot) at the same
time you cast your summoning spell. The creature gains the
benefi t of the spell when it appears.
An imbued summoning spell uses up a spell slot one level
higher than the spell’s actual level.

[STRIKE]Elemental Swarm is a 9th level spell, so, unless you have 10th level spell slots, you cannot use Imbue Summoning with Elemental Swarm.[/STRIKE]

I see no reason (by the rules) that you could not Imbue Summoning on Summon Elementite Swarm, as a Swarm is technically only one monster (made up of multiple, lesser creatures) and any effect you apply to it (up to 3rd level spells, iirc) are not powerful enough to merit banning it.

 

[frankthedm]

I see no reason (by the rules) that you could not Imbue Summoning on Summon Elementite Swarm, as a Swarm is technically only one monster

Except that swarms specify that single target effects, like most low level buffs, don't effect swarms.

 

[Sekhmet]

Would you point me to that book/page/SRD? The most definitive thing I can recall on that subject is that Swarms are effectively one single creature (One HD, one Save, one AC, etc)

 

[frankthedm]

Would you point me to that book/page/SRD?

OP already did.

Types & Subtypes :: d20srd.org
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

 

[Sekhmet]

I think the problem resides in that you're not casting the spell on the swarm, therefor there is no need to touch the elementites in question, therefor the quality that prevents it from being the target of single target spells is not in affect at the point of casting.

 

[frankthedm]

I think the problem resides in that you're not casting the spell on the swarm, therefor there is no need to touch the elementites in question, therefor the quality that prevents it from being the target of single target spells is not in affect at the point of casting.

It isn't whether you can touch them or not. The swarm is just immune to the spell.

 

[Sekhmet]

You're not casting it AT the swarm, however. You're weaving the magic into the initial summoning spell. The swarm is not the target of the spell, and therefor it's immunity never comes into question.

 

[Dyir]

Technically, the Imbued Summoning feat does not say that the caster actually touches the summoned creature. Nor does it specifically state that it only applies to a single creature if multiple creatures are summoned. So it could be argued that the benefits of the "buff spell" could apply to each member of the swarm, and therefore to the entire swarm itself.

Honestly, it's a poorly-worded feat. The statement that the "buff spell" is "cast" "at the same time" as the summoning spell is confusing: can one spell be interrupted but not the other? The intention is probably that it costs a spell slot (for spontaneous casters) or removes the "buff spell" from being prepared (for everyone else). And the fact that it is completely silent on whether the "buff spell" applies to one, more, or all summoned creatures from a single spell is annoying too.

 

[Sekhmet]

I always read it that the Imbued Summoning spell costs 1 spell slot higher, not that you have to use two spell slots (one for the summoning at 1 spell slot higher and one for the buff spell).
Prepared casters would just weave the magic together when they were preparing that day, so they could not be cast individually that day.
Spontaneous casters would cast similarly, which isn't out of line when considering they've always been best at metamagics.