Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

[Anubis]

If you were to remove the wealth the characters would still have the ability score bonuses; thats why they are calculated.

It doesn't matter to you that they use wealth to get that stuff in the first place?

It says determine EL by totalling as shown, but not EXP for mixed opponents.

Thats another point I will have to clarify.

CR is still a measurement of a moderate opponent.

EL under my auspices adheres to the 4x = x+4.

You MUST determine EXP from Encounter Level; otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all.

I think you should use individuals' ELs, however, as opposed to the "total" EL for the encounter. That's what I'm saying.

Yes. See I told you it was easy.

I already told you in our email I prefered your measurement of the NPC classes - I just haven't got round to changing them yet.

Also the difference is so negligable anyway that I am not in any hurry.

My memory sucks. Heh.

Where does it say that? I couldn't find it.

MM p.144 and DMG p. 58

The ogre has Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

Using the system for determining ability score modifiers in the DMG, that means an ogre PC gets Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4 as per the DMG. Well it has a different method for determining penalties, but this way is much faster and accurate anyway, and the NPC Adjustments on DMG p. 58 use that system anyway.

Just subtract 10 from all scores.

No, it's 10 from evens, 11 from odds. This avoids odd modifiers, and as we all know, D&D revolves around those evens. That's the simplest way to deal with it anyway.

See how easy it is!

It will be at the back of the IH.

I want that damn book!

I'm gonna mail blitz WotC until they get what you need out there! Those fools are slower than the government!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Firstly thanks Knight Otu mate!

I am sure I have read over that bit a hundred times but it just slipped my (admittedly poor) memory.

Hello Anubis matey!

It doesn't matter to you that they use wealth to get that stuff in the first place?

Nope.

I think you should use individuals' ELs, however, as opposed to the "total" EL for the encounter. That's what I'm saying.

Seemingly that should avoid confusion.

My memory sucks. Heh.

You and me both mate!

MM p.144 and DMG p. 58

The ogre has Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7.

Using the system for determining ability score modifiers in the DMG, that means an ogre PC gets Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4 as per the DMG. Well it has a different method for determining penalties, but this way is much faster and accurate anyway, and the NPC Adjustments on DMG p. 58 use that system anyway.

Indeed.

No, it's 10 from evens, 11 from odds. This avoids odd modifiers, and as we all know, D&D revolves around those evens. That's the simplest way to deal with it anyway.

True but something that was pointed out in the Andy Collins Forum thread was that odd ability scores are used for things like Feat Prerequistes among other things, so they are still pertinent.

I want that damn book!

Don't worry it'll be worth the wait!

I'm gonna mail blitz WotC until they get what you need out there! Those fools are slower than the government!

Time spent responding to your mail blitz might inadvertantly slow them...perhaps its just better to let nature take its course.

I know for a fact that the book I am iminently set to launch is much, much better than the one I would have released nine months ago*.

* when the decision was made to wait for D&Dgs inclusion into the SRD.

Incidently I have been tinkering with some of the items in the Epic Level Handbook a handful of which required some fine tuning and a few of which were a bit bonkers it terms of price(Souldrinker sword for instance is WAY undervalued). So expect some minor surgery of them in the relevant section of the IH (as I have with about a half dozen Epic Feats).

 

[Anubis]

True but something that was pointed out in the Andy Collins Forum thread was that odd ability scores are used for things like Feat Prerequistes among other things, so they are still pertinent.

Oh, I know that. I'm not debating that fact. My concern is only to keep with the standard when it comes to ability score modifiers for races, and that's all. The standard for races is even numbers, so for the sake of simplicity (and so as not to change things that truly are unnecessary for the most part), we should keep that standard, as it follows what is stated in the PH and the DMG.

Besides, half the races alreayd have values set forth in the DMG that are determined by that very system, so unless you were planning on listing all the changes, it's just not worth worrying about.

Basically, the standard system is perfectly fine for ability scores for various races. No need to get picky about something as minor as that.

(Souldrinker sword for instance is WAY undervalued)

Hehehe . . . Yeah . . . Considering it's the single best weapon listed in any of the core D&D books, being ten times better than the Everwhirling Chain, Unholy Despoiler, and Holy Devastator and costs about one tenth the amount . . .

By the way, UK, is it just me, or does the Holy Devastator seem grossly underpowered? After all, it's supposed to be a beefed up Holy Avenger, but it's barely better at all and has half the abilities! Do you intend to tweak it?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Oh, I know that. I'm not debating that fact. My concern is only to keep with the standard when it comes to ability score modifiers for races, and that's all. The standard for races is even numbers, so for the sake of simplicity (and so as not to change things that truly are unnecessary for the most part), we should keep that standard, as it follows what is stated in the PH and the DMG.

If people want to maintain even numbered bonuses for determining Templates/ECLs (derived from the method you advocate) then by all means do so. I don't see how that unduly upsets my system either way though.

Besides, half the races alreayd have values set forth in the DMG that are determined by that very system, so unless you were planning on listing all the changes, it's just not worth worrying about.

I'm not worrying about it at all I assure you!

Basically, the standard system is perfectly fine for ability scores for various races. No need to get picky about something as minor as that.

Isn't your argument in effect 'picky' then!?

Hehehe . . . Yeah . . . Considering it's the single best weapon listed in any of the core D&D books, being ten times better than the Everwhirling Chain, Unholy Despoiler, and Holy Devastator and costs about one tenth the amount . . .

Yes I fail to see how they could make such a glaring error; I price the Souldrinker at 32 million GP (about 70 times more than the ELH).

By the way, UK, is it just me, or does the Holy Devastator seem grossly underpowered? After all, it's supposed to be a beefed up Holy Avenger, but it's barely better at all and has half the abilities! Do you intend to tweak it?

Thats not one of the ones (or two factoring the Unholy Despoiler) on my list.

However I do have my own version of the alignment centric weapon powers called:

[Aligned*] Scion

*Chaotic; Holy; Lawful; Unholy etc.

I was very disappointed in the Epic Armour and Weapon Special Abilities; I mean they only had 4+3 (Armour & Shield) and 5+3 (Melee & Ranged) abilities that they fleshed out with different variations. I don't brook that sort of deception; so when I say I have 30+ Armour/Shield and 60+ Melee/Ranged abilities thats not counting the same idea twice but with a different energy signature etc.

As well as a few tweaks to Epic Items I have spotted a few non-epic items that I will also redress:

Rings of Protection (deflective '+' is squared but no longer doubled to find out the price)

Disruption (only works on a critical now) and Vorpal Weapon Special Abilities (only function on a 19-20 rather than a critical hit).

 

[Anubis]

Disruption (only works on a critical now)

Aw, c'mon! In that case, you better bump up the save needed to prevent destruction! It's only DC 15 as-is, which is hardly game-breaking. If you make it work only on critical hits, bump up the DC to that of a coup de grace or something. Gotta make it useful at least.

and Vorpal Weapon Special Abilities (only function on a 19-20 rather than a critical hit).

Actually, I had a pretty good fix for Vorpal weapons that you might be interested in. I had posted it a while ago, but it's not near the front anymore. Lemme go find it . . .

There it is! Needs some tweaking, though . . .

First off, make Vorpal a +10 bonus instead of a +5. Anyway, make all hits do double damage, doubling the damage AFTER *all other damage modifiers, including stuff that normally isn't counted in a critical hit such as sneak attack damage, flaming, etc. This works on ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. Next, all threats are automatically critical hits, and that damage is also doubled. This, however, is subject to the normal critical hit rules, so some things are not hurt by it such as undead and elementals. Finally, on a natural 20, treat it as a threat for an instant kill, as per the variant rule on DMG page 64. This works on *anything with a Constitution score*, even if normally immune to criticals. This makes the Vorpal power super-deadly and harder to get, and doesn't nerf it while not keeping it TOO powerful for the price of admission.

For a +5 variant, use the old "Sharpness" power. For these weapons, all threats are automatically critical hits, subject to the normal critical hit rules of course. Other than that, it works exactly as in the DMG except that the threat for a beheading is only on a natural 20. All other restrictions still apply.

 

[Anubis]

By the way, UK, I think I will actually test your CR/EL system in my current campaign. The only house changes will be that I will give XP per creature instead of per encounter, and I will use the values I previous sent you for NPC classes. Other than that, I will test them fully as-is in an actual campaign, a campaign that begins at Level 1. I will report all results per game session.

Is there any other errata I need to know about besides what was on the first page of this thread?

Anyway, you have me pretty much convinced that this system works!

I bet you figured this day would come all along, didn't ya'?

 

[Gez]

Buon Giorno !

True but something that was pointed out in the Andy Collins Forum thread was that odd ability scores are used for things like Feat Prerequistes among other things, so they are still pertinent.

I have a different view on that, but maybe that's just because I'm a naughty person. Odd ability scores are irrelevant and useless, being like those half-ranks in cross-class skills, and the feat prerequisite thing is only an artificial a posteriori attempt at making them look pertinent.

In other words, this mechanism is there only to make people believe they still use the old D&D 3 -- 18 range, rather than Johnattan Tweet's Ars Magica's -5 -- +5 range.

Another thing to consider is that, since the average of 3 dice is 10.5, an average character will have 3 odds and 3 evens (for a truly average, 10-11-10-11-10-11).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Aw, c'mon! In that case, you better bump up the save needed to prevent destruction! It's only DC 15 as-is, which is hardly game-breaking. If you make it work only on critical hits, bump up the DC to that of a coup de grace or something. Gotta make it useful at least.

DC becomes 21 as far as I can tell.

Actually, I had a pretty good fix for Vorpal weapons that you might be interested in. I had posted it a while ago, but it's not near the front anymore. Lemme go find it . . .

Sure.

There it is! Needs some tweaking, though . . .

First off, make Vorpal a +10 bonus instead of a +5.

Not sure the masses would go for it.

Anyway, make all hits do double damage, doubling the damage AFTER *all other damage modifiers, including stuff that normally isn't counted in a critical hit such as sneak attack damage, flaming, etc. This works on ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. Next, all threats are automatically critical hits, and that damage is also doubled. This, however, is subject to the normal critical hit rules, so some things are not hurt by it such as undead and elementals. Finally, on a natural 20, treat it as a threat for an instant kill, as per the variant rule on DMG page 64. This works on *anything with a Constitution score*, even if normally immune to criticals. This makes the Vorpal power super-deadly and harder to get, and doesn't nerf it while not keeping it TOO powerful for the price of admission.

Dunno; I'll have a think - seems a bit too complicated.

For a +5 variant, use the old "Sharpness" power. For these weapons, all threats are automatically critical hits, subject to the normal critical hit rules of course.

You are getting into dangerous territory here.

Other than that, it works exactly as in the DMG except that the threat for a beheading is only on a natural 20. All other restrictions still apply.

I think Vorpal needs to be divorced from Critical Hit because you can still decapitate certain undead and constructs it just won't necessarily kill them (corporeal Undead aside).

By the way, UK, I think I will actually test your CR/EL system in my current campaign.

Thanks mate! Let me know if you find any loopholes?

The only house changes will be that I will give XP per creature instead of per encounter, and I will use the values I previous sent you for NPC classes.

Sure.

Other than that, I will test them fully as-is in an actual campaign, a campaign that begins at Level 1. I will report all results per game session.

Is there any other errata I need to know about besides what was on the first page of this thread?

Probably. Let me think:

You know things are taken to 0.1 rather than 0.5 (eg. Spell resistance; Natural Armour etc.).
Round fractions to the nearest whole.
Energy Drain is +1.5 (One level drain) +0.5 extra level drained
Ability Score Drain is +0.75 (One point) +0.25 extra point
Flight is now +0.2 per maneouverability (eg. Poor to Perfect)

Incidently there is a whole lot of other stuff I am working on and I am still not settled with Spell-Like Abilities.

Anyway, you have me pretty much convinced that this system works!

About time!

...couldn't have done it without the help of everyone here. Thanks all!

I bet you figured this day would come all along, didn't ya'?

It was preordained; we just had to wait for the appropriate celestial conjunction.


By the way, the most powerful weapon ability in the Immortals Handbook has a +1250 rating. It makes the Vorpal effect look like a paper cut. I don't expect it to see much use but I just thought I would throw it in to give people an idea how the big boys play.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Buon Giorno !

Charbeetar!

I have a different view on that, but maybe that's just because I'm a naughty person. Odd ability scores are irrelevant and useless, being like those half-ranks in cross-class skills, and the feat prerequisite thing is only an artificial a posteriori attempt at making them look pertinent.

In other words, this mechanism is there only to make people believe they still use the old D&D 3 -- 18 range, rather than Johnattan Tweet's Ars Magica's -5 -- +5 range.

Another thing to consider is that, since the average of 3 dice is 10.5, an average character will have 3 odds and 3 evens (for a truly average, 10-11-10-11-10-11).

Its not just Feat prerequisites. What about things like Ability Score Checks? Ability Score Drain/Loss?

 

[Anubis]

DC becomes 21 as far as I can tell.

OH, so you were talking about the GREATER Disruption ability. Assuming you made the same change to Disruption, however, I think you kinda nerfed these abilities . . .

DC 21? That doesn't go far at Epic Levels . . .

Sure.

Not sure the masses would go for it.

Dunno; I'll have a think - seems a bit too complicated.

You are getting into dangerous territory here.

I think Vorpal needs to be divorced from Critical Hit because you can still decapitate certain undead and constructs it just won't necessarily kill them (corporeal Undead aside).

I dunno. I just wanted to take some power out of it without nerfing it. Say it only responds to life force or something. Whatever. It's magic!

Thanks mate! Let me know if you find any loopholes?

Sure.

Probably. Let me think:

You know things are taken to 0.1 rather than 0.5 (eg. Spell resistance; Natural Armour etc.).
Round fractions to the nearest whole.
Energy Drain is +1.5 (One level drain) +0.5 extra level drained
Ability Score Drain is +0.75 (One point) +0.25 extra point
Flight is now +0.2 per maneouverability (eg. Poor to Perfect)

Incidently there is a whole lot of other stuff I am working on and I am still not settled with Spell-Like Abilities.

Noted.

About time!

...couldn't have done it without the help of everyone here. Thanks all!

It was preordained; we just had to wait for the appropriate celestial conjunction.

By the way, the most powerful weapon ability in the Immortals Handbook has a +1250 rating. It makes the Vorpal effect look like a paper cut. I don't expect it to see much use but I just thought I would throw it in to give people an idea how the big boys play.

+1250!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

DUDE! The most powerful character in existence couldn't make such a weapon! Hell, you'd need 3750 levels to even have the first prerequisite (caster level needing to be three times the bonus) met!

Hell, a +1250 weapon would have a market price of 31,250,000,000 gp, would cost 15,625,000,000 gp in raw materials and 312,510,000 XP, and would take almost 86 Greyhawk years to finish (WITH Efficient Item Creation)!

I still remember one time when you debated with me about all magical items having to have been created at some point . . . Who could possibly create such an item? Or are we getting into Time Lord power levels here that would make Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta cry like a little girl?

What the heck does that thing do, detonate entire galaxies with a free action?