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Message: <blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3605011" data-attributes="member: 29746">Answering long arguments point-by-point and going back and forth that way tends to produce such. Nature of the medium. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /> What I mean is the average party level of the games I've run at around 20th level and higher. My current Epic game is by far the longest game I've ever run- it's been going from 1st level to now, over 6 years of real time (we just had a true anniversary game- since the dates for 2007 Saturdays exactly match those from 2001- in April), but it's not by any means the only one I've been running under 3.X rules. I've had several side games, and I include my experience from those games with the Epic game (which is, of course, slightly over-the-top- but if you up the average PC level of a group of "regular" gamers by about 5 or 6 I'm convinced you'll see similar numbers).I've long considered using the rule you suggested some years ago, that energy immunities constitute a Resistance of 50 in most cases, and a blanket immunity like Death Ward just translates to a massive save bonus. The trouble is when to make the transition happen in-game, since the game doesn't just stop.I agree with that argument; however, we aren't talking about that. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Or at least *I* wasn't. I was talking about the monster having a choice between melee and a save-or-die effect that has only a 5% chance of working because the character saves on anything but a nat1. Unless the monster can use it six times on the same target in a single round by spending one action, the melee attack is better, hands-down.If you force the PCs to "waste" actions of their own countering yours, then no, it is not a waste, it is a strategic move. But I covered that in my first post on this topic; typically actions which produce results like this are negated by buffs the PCs used outside of combat (where the "don't waste actions" rule doesn't apply). If you can get rid of their original layer of buffs and force them to buff during combat, then that becomes a good trade-off for you, which is why using a Dispel or Disjunction is sometimes a worthwhile action.Usually though, if you use an ability and it has no effect, then the action spent to use the ability was wasted.I always hated the fact that saves go down to using the same number in 1st Edition. I far prefer the DC mechanic, it feels more dramatic to me. Your suggestion about changing save DC calculations to 20 + mods that sparked this whole massive-post war does essentially the same thing in reverse, which is probably why it rubbed me so much the wrong way.Of course. However, I will note that the powergamers haven't always gamed their PCs for combat; as I said above I've run many other games- and those two have been in those side games off and on over the years. I've seen characters optimized for Diplomacy or item crafting like you wouldn't believe. And I'll mention that the double-major guy is the one running Equinox, the character in my current side game who got two DR by making a Deal; what he did with that character before the divinity came into the mix was actually enough to force two other players to make new characters because their original "niches" were suddenly overshadowed by Equinox who was doing it better. Like I said, he's out to "win."Certainly not me. I'm the one who gave the PCs enough toys to take out an Orichalcum Guardian at level 30 in the first place. In pursuit of another toy, for that matter. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> Admittedly they were doing it at the direction of the party tank's god (whom they've met in person several times of course), and who will eventually be demanding that they give him the artifact they went to such trouble to acquire- since he's the one who told them what it was, where it was, how it would help them, and how to use it.By the time it comes out they'll probably be 40th. So it'll depend on just how powerful those monsters are. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Is the intended theme that the Adamic/Cosmic Dragons mirror basic forces of nature in some way, so for example, the Planetary is Gravity, Cometary is Time, and something else is Electromagnetic? Strong Force and Weak Force would be strange to contemplate game effects for, but probably possible to come up with something cool for anyway. Of course, that doesn't leave enough dragons for the list you already noted in Bestiary I.The Transcendental Dragons- the "tapeworms in the body of the Demiurge"- seem to be based on extreme warps in spacetime. That doesn't leave a lot of options, unless we break theme and/or expand it slightly.Ideas I'm toying with include a Quark Dragon, a Superstring Dragon, "Superposition Particles" Dragon, and a Brane Dragon (brane in the sense of current string theory/M-theory that is). Of those, the only obvious Neh-whatever Dragon is the Brane Dragon; that pretty much has to be extra-universal to work (actually it may be a specially-shaped Time Lord). What "tier" do you suppose the others might be?Really, just saying "Black Hole Dragon" is cool. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Enough to put the fear o' Overgods into any player's heart.And as for the class-based Epic Dragons, there are considerably more classes to base on these days than just the ones you've listed- for example, what about a Warlock Dragon? Or a Binder Dragon (Binder being from the Tome of Magic)? I could go on, but you get the idea. Some of the "new classes" clearly fall so close to old ones that they don't really "deserve" dragons of their own, but others are pretty "out there" and do deserve such treatment.And as for the Bard Dragon, didn't somebody on these boards some time ago stat up a version, which name escapes me right now? It may have been one of the old Bestiary threads before Morrus gave you your own forum.</blockquote>

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