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Message: <blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 3634594" data-attributes="member: 29746">Your math breaks here. Without responding to the rest of the post, I really must check this formula here as being unrealistically low- I would venture to say wildly low.PCs at 40th level will have spent so much money/resources/magic on increasing their ability scores that the average numbers will be well above 17, if not far above it. If a PC in an Epic game that high has not gone out of his way to acquire enough Wishes or Tomes of Whatever to increase his inherent bonuses to all +5s, then either the DM is being very stingy or the player just isn't trying. Anybody who actually starts a game at 40th level is guaranteed to see most if not all of his players listing "read; exhausted" Tomes for every ability score- they're easily cheap enough by that level that every PC can spend the funds for all six +5 books without putting a large dent in the resource value available at that level (40th-level PCs start with 13.6 million; the books cost a paltry 137 thousand each). Items to increase ability scores are just as easy to acquire by that time, but more importantly, the Epic spellcasters in the party will be using serious buffs like that "+30 CHA to all allies within 30 feet of me" Aura of Glory that the Sorceress in my original Epic game uses. She's only 32nd level overall, and she researched that spell before she was even 30th.The cumulative effect of all this is difficult to overstate. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Even if a PC has an ability score less than 20 by this level, it is guaranteed to be in a score that that character simply doesn't care about because its bonuses don't affect his or her specialty- for example, the sorceress mentioned above has a STR score below 20 (actually, I believe it's the one score she's never bothered to get a Manual for increasing- but I wouldn't be surprised if she does get one sometime within the next 8 levels since she, like the others, is practically swimming in resources right now). The scores that actually matter to the character- and I can guarantee that any player who pays attention will find that the save-boosting trio matters before reaching Epic levels in the first place- will be boosted. Spellcasters other than Divine ones may not increase WIS all that much, but they will do it for the slight boost to Will saves and the (more important) boost to the many WIS-based skills, particularly Spot and Listen (no PC likes to be caught by surprise). Melee tanks may not increase DEX much, but even they will appreciate having better Reflex saves and (more importantly) better initiative, plus access to new feats that help AC such as Dodge and others that help attacks such as Two-Weapon Fighting. And there isn't a character in the game who won't appreciate the all-important boost to hit points that come with a higher CON score- the Fortitude save bonus is really just icing on that cake for many.The save-boosting ability scores of 40th-level PCs, in other words, will be considerably higher than a laughably low 17. They may not be "prime requisites" for most, but they are important enough even without considering the boost afforded to saves that they will be earmarked for increases (not to mention, having higher scores put into them in the first place during the die-rolling or point-buying of character creation). A character who focuses all powers and resources on increasing the prime requisite, and neglects the rest, is not going to survive to 40th level in the first place.</blockquote>

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