Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available)

[Rhuarc]

Hey UK,

really nice update, love the new abilties

Just one question, maybe I missed that part but what kind of save DC is commonly used for the [Effect] abilities? The usual 10 + 1/2 level/HD + divine bonus + attribut modifier?

Thanks again

 

[Paragon]

so i remember you mentioning a new epic spellcasting system that i think you said at one time would be part of the ascension, i'm guess that will be in the grimore (sic?) do out sometime in 2009?
j/k

 

[Fieari]

Some tweaks I think would be good...

Achilles Heel: Awesome ability! Wouldn't it be easier though, just to grant DR 2xHD/Nat 20? And then specify that all criticals against someone with this ability do maximum damage automatically, and that even those who'd be normally immune to criticals are vulnerable to them with this ability? Add in a special note that knowing where the spot is can also bypass the DR as the ability currently states, and this is perfect. I'm -really- impressed with this one.

Adjuration: Total allies yes, but what about any given single ally? You might want to set a limit there... perhaps at 1/2 HD? Or 3/4? Otherwise, once per day, a mere intermediate deity might summon an Old One...

Perfect Mind: Might want to add that this ability STACKS with those 15 wishes, because otherwise it'd be a waste, I think. Probably be cheaper just to make the wishes, esspecially with the "Make a wish" epic feat you offer...

 

[Anabstercorian]

Response to EPIC FEATS

Amazing Pockets: Looks good. Conceptually BRILLIANT. Might be wise to have the prerequisites scale up as you buy more of the feat.

Anoxia: ...This is very questionable in balance. Being able to rack up bonus feats is immensely powerful. Are they limited to non-epic feats?

Apophenia: Looks fine.

Automatic Metamagic Capacity: Looks fine.

Automatic Writing: Probably needs a Spellcraft rank prerequisite, and you should clarify on how it functions with Sorcerers.

Blood Rage: I'd clarify that the bonus to strength from rage increases by +4 - that removes all concerns about stacking clarity.

Cats Fall: Given the roll of the Tumble skill in this, as well as the Tumble epic skill check that allows exactly this, this should probably have a tumble rank prerequisite.

Concerted Inspiration: The 'benefit' and 'special' text contradict each other a bit ('Two bards with this ability' sort of implies that both need the feat) but the special text is pretty clearly dominant, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Cryptomnesia: The prerequisites should probably include the prerequisites of the divine ability... Or something. I'm not sure. It's a little odd to have a plot device like this be a player option.

Divine Guidance: Uh. Wow. That's a little scary, but if you think it's balanced I'll trust you on it.

Divine Providence: Looks fine.

Divine Retribution: Define 'one final attack' more clearly. Is this a spell? A swing of a sword? A standard action? How fast can you make these attacks?

Divine Right: Pretty swank, but doesn't the power potentially vary pretty wildly depending on the patron/ess deity?

Eclectic Defense: Do you have to pick up the furniture and such? Does it apply an armor check penalty?

Eclectic Shot: Looks fine. Do you get to pick what sort of weapon it functions as?

Eclectic Strike: Looks fine. Do you get to pick what sort of weapon it functions as?

Egg-Born: Looks weird. But fine.

Enchanted Strike: Looks fine. Should probably have some sort of limit to prevent people from spamming it to get +20 hand weapons.

Enlarge Strike: Looks super fun.

Epic Potency: Looks fine.

Epic Shield Focus: Have you even READ the shield rules? This feat does nothing you can't already do at first level. Scrap it, and shame on you for writing it!

Ether Goer: Looks swank.

Expert Strike: Define 'fight an opponent'. Do you have to actually attack him? Is it sufficient to watch him fight?

Extra Quivering Palm: Looks fine.

Fire Baptism: Define 'fight an opponent'. Do you have to actually attack him? Is it sufficient to watch him fight?

Forked Tongue: I'd replace Diplomacy 30 with Bluff 30. Otherwise, this is VERY cool. What's the saving throw on the Confusion effect?

Good [Saving Throw]: How does this interact with multiclass characters?

Greater Multiweapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Greater Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Haleness: Looks fine.

Haunting Music: Looks like an interesting concept... I like it. It's clearly unfinished so I've no further comment.

Heavy Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Heavy Fortification: Very cool.

Hibernate: Do you age while you hibernate? I don't think you should - it doesn't quite seem epic-worthy otherwise.

Impaling Shot: Unfinished, no comment.

Improved Combat Expertise: Looks fine.

Improved Critical Multiplier: Improved Critical only applies to a single weapon. Does the same requirement affect this?

Improved Dodge: Looks fine.

Improved Multiweapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Improved Power Attack: Looks a little nuts. Power Attack is one of those things that everyone needs at the higher levels, so making it even more powerful is kind of scary. How does this interact with two-handed weapons?

Improved Spellcasting: Looks fine.

Improved Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Improved Toughness: Looks fine.

Improved Turning: Looks fine.

Incorruptable Body: Misspelled, should be Incorruptible. Otherwise it looks pretty awesome.

Inedia: Looks fine.

Insomnious: Looks fine.

Killer Instinct: A little terrifying, frankly. This multiplies an assassins lethality by a factor of about 9. I urge caution.

Light Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Light Fortification: Looks fine.

Malifiecus: I'd give a nap-length-to-divination-spell-equivalent listing, but I'm formal that way.

Mantic Frenzy: Unfinished, no comment

Mathesis: I'd ignore the 10% error margin thing - kind of pointless.

Medium Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Metamagic Freedom: Looks fine.

Moderate Fortifcation: Looks fine.

Nosodic: I don't approve. The worse a disease is, the more powerful this feat becomes - I don't like 'scaling' feats. What's this from, mythologically?

Perfect Multi-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Perfect Sunder: Yowza! Terrifying. I likey.

Perfect Three Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Phrenology: I'd ignore the 10% error margin thing - kind of pointless.

Piercing Shot: I'd clarify that your shots can continue to strike any foe who would have cover from you thanks to the first target.

Plastic Soul: Not sure how I feel about this, given that a sufficient Escape Artist allows the same thing.

Power Attack Mastery: I like this. This one's thinking outside the box.

Pre-Emptive Strike: Base Attack Bonus +1 is kind of redundant. It's not really clear when this feat functions, to me, but I'm literal minded...

Prehensile Hair: Looks good to me.

Second Strike: Looks good to me. Very classy.

Shadow Body: This feat's mechanics are EXTREMELY vague. Conceptually, however, it's very awesome, so good luck!

Shield Mastery: Looks fine, though needs editing.

Sideways Stealing: I approve!

Silent Song: Looks good to me.

Silver Tongue: What's the save DC?

Sixth Sense: Awesome.

Sky Walker: Very cool.

Sonic Strike: Looks good to me.

Soothsayer: I like it. How do you define 'lies', same as the 'detect lies' spell?

Star Child: Nice.

Stellar Music: Looks fine to me.

Sticky Strike: Yay, it's my Shredding Attack ability! I approve.

Subtle Body: Looks fine to me.

Superior Cleave: Chop chop!

Superior Critical: Looks fine to me.

Superior Disarm: Terrifying! There should be some sort of disarm-countering technique, some sort of weapon-calling kung fu.

Superior Flurry: Looks fine.

Superior Power Attack: Yikes. How does this interact wiht two-handed weapons?

Superior Sunder: Looks pretty cool to me.

Superior Trip: Terrifying! I like.

Supreme Dodge: Looks fine.

Supreme Toughness: Manly.

Sure Shot: Looks fine.

Tenacious Body: Looks fine to me.

Tensegrity: How's this interact with heavy weapons and armor?

Terrene Body: Is this true immortality, without the 'mysterious death when your 'time is up'' thing?

Three Weapon Defense: Looks fine.

Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Three-Weapon Rend: Wait. If you've got the first sword in your left hand, and your second sword in your right hand, how are you using the third weapon to rend...? Never mind. Looks fine.

Timely Dodge: Needs editing and clarification. Safety Among Enemies Technique for the win.

Titanic Wildshape: Are there any titanic animals?

Underwalker: Looks fine.

Universal Energy Strike: Looks fine.

Venomous Wildshape: Needs editing and clarification.

Weapon Abatement: Looks good. The Special text is a little reduntant.

Weapon Mastery: Looks awesome.

Widen Attack: Not really finished. Hope it comes out good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Okay, lets make a dent in this post backlog...

Hiya mate!

?This one? What do you think...is it fine or in need of revisions. Divine ability or Cosmic ability?

Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to any of the opposed class's features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case.

I'd probably make that Divine.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox42 dude!

Actually I'd keep the powers essentially the same and just inflate the hit die limits, since the powers (as far as I can tell) are the primary add-on to the CR granted by the template.

Indeed.

Obviously this will significantly alter the part that gets added from equipment, but I actually have significantly different assumptions for equipment anyway (for example, I wasn't planning on going with the four-artifact limit in an absolute sense), so no matter what that part of the ECL/CR change would have to be at least closely examined.

Okay, I won't preach to you the benefits of the four artifact system.

Honestly, the power level of basic mortals in my game is very different from the base WotC numbers anyway, so I can't go with your assumptions even on that general principle since you based your numbers (at least for a starting point) on theirs. My starting point is higher-power, so I have to inflate the deities to match, at the very least- if that makes sense.

Not sure I follow you. Do you mean the power of basic NPCs or the power of basic PCs. The latter I can understand, the former is a tad confusing.

Another part of this ties in with the fact that my world has a large number of "fantasy science-fiction" elements in it, meaning high-tech weapons like energy guns and starships in addition to the traditional sword & sorcery fare.

So does ours, I'll have the big Gods vs. Sci-fi/Modern settings section in Chronicle.

Assumptions for deity power are just... different, in a setting like that.

Not sure I agree. I'd have powered armor and high tech stuff go up against the gods as they are. Which tells me you are using some homebrew guns/armour which provide a MAJOR power boost to PCs. Nothing wrong with that of course, especially if you are playing in a high physical factor campaign/world.

I partially explain the difference at the bottom of this page:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff3.htm

The explanation of where the power comes from is different, and the effects of using the power will be as well to keep internal consistency. The differences from the IH are small ones, to be sure, but they will require tweaks to make it all fit.

Well I am just glad I was able to give you something to get your teeth into despite the differences.

Exactly. I wanted a larger power gap between my deities and mortals, and since my mortals are more powerful as a general base I have to greatly inflate the power of deities to get that. That said, I do still have plenty of interaction between deities and mortals in my game; the players are just made aware very early on that deities are not to be trifled with.

Watch that inflation.

No, that's fine; I'm certainly not saying your flavor is bad or wrong! I just have a game setting that's very different from traditional sword & sorcery fantasy, so I have to explain things differently.

The particular example with Sidereals involves the in-game explanation for what the beings actually are- my players have already encountered a Sidereal being, or at least the Divine-level "avatar" of one, and were given an explanation of what the "Overgods" actually are as beings. What I said was that deities have their power because their minds are housed, not in physical bodies like mortals, but in constructs of pure energy. They can form physical bodies to make interaction with the universe more convenient, but they don't need to to survive. In that light, the Overgods are another level entirely- they exist not as energy, but as patterns in the quantum probability waves that give rise to physical reality. They can form "avatars" of energy which are effectively deities in their own right, but they don't need to any more than deities need to form physical bodies. And of course those deity-avatars can themselves form avatars in physical form if the being wants to.

Cool.

In light of that, your rules (which seem based on the assumption that Sidereals and other immortal beings are, in some qualitative sense, more similar to mortals than my flavor allows) may need some tweaking, particularly in the gaps between "levels" of the various entities.

Well I generally prefer more tangible manifestations.

Thus, I will tweak them once I have more complete rules to examine and can see the complete spread- where it matches, and where it doesn't. Obviously, your explanations about Sidereals do match mine in one very interesting and important point- both of us have them as essentially "written" into the underlying fabric of the universe (or multiverse) itself. We just seem to differ on exactly how their power arises and a little on what they can do with it.

Well I am sure many people will have their own campaigns and deities long before my books came along and they'll want to pick and choose which stuff suits their campaign best.

Glad to hear it! This really is a monumental effort, and it's already surpassed Primal Order (the previous "definitive" work on game rules for deities in my collection) in utility and idea generation, in my eyes.

I wouldn't make that claim just yet...of course after the books finished...

I plan to get every IH book you put out, however long they take, and my players already know my game will be using the IH rules (or anyway as much of them as I can). In fact they already came up against a few critters from the Bestiary Volume I, but that's neither here nor there.

I appreciate the support dude!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Cosmic or Divine?

Blight Lord (Ex):The deity possesses the integrated class features of a Blighter, in addition to the deity's preexisting integrated class features, if any. The deity's effective level in this second integrated class is equal to one half their hit dice.

Divine. Although I'd probably need to read up on the Blighter again.

Lich Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a lich, even if this would ordinarily be impossible. The deity is not truly undead, thus retaining their constitution score and constitution modifier, though they are so very like the dead as to be indistinguishable via casual observation.

Actually I was meant to have a divine ability called Necrosoul in the list which let you become either a Lich (Though you need the Undeath divine ability as a prereq.)

I was then going to continue the Necro chain of abilities into the cosmic and transcendental.

Although I am not sure how much these template smight depreciate at those levels.

I mean technically Vampire ECL roughly parallels it with a Cosmic power...but it seems really weak for such a power.

Demilich ECL roughly parallels Transcendental. Akalich possibly working as a second transcendental with the Demilich ability as a prereq.

Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to either of the opposed classes' features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case.

Divine.

Plant Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a plant, even if this would ordinarily be impossible.

I think I already have this somewhere.

Maybe its under Earthly Ancestry...*goes to look*

Im currently using this ability for a low ranking deity who serves one of tiamat's red dragon consorts.

Disciple of the Red Wyrm (Ex): The deity possesses all the abilities of a red dragon, of an age category that inherently possesses a number of hit dice equal to the deity's outsider hit dice, rounded down to the nearest age category. Additionally, their natural form becomes so like that of a red dragon of that age category, that they become virtually indistinguishable from a red dragon of that age category, even though they retain all the abilities of their previous form in addition to those granted by this divine ability. Furthermore since they are not quite natural, they do not acquire draconic ability through aging. Instead they must advance these abilities and their form via accrual of experience. Thus the deity's approximated level of power is entirely reliant upon it's advancement as an outsider. Finally, it is important to note that, while the deity is in fact a dragon, their type remains outsider. Deities without outsider hit dice cannot acquire this divine ability, nor may any who possess the cold subtype.

I must admit I am impressed, that is a very cool cosmic ability.

I was thinking about a Divine Ability that gave you the Half-Dragon template. Maybe that would be a prereq. for your cosmic power.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Got it!

I have a question about the Tensegrity feat: How does it affect your ability to lift and wield orichalcum weapons?

It lets you use them at 5 points of strength lower than you normally would be able to.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Great stuff, as always UK.

Thanks dude!

Even the mere descriptions have me fascinated!

Thats probably because the descriptions don't make any sense yet.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK,

Hey Rhuarc mate!

really nice update, love the new abilties

Early days yet. I am not very impressed with the state of them.

Just one question, maybe I missed that part but what kind of save DC is commonly used for the [Effect] abilities? The usual 10 + 1/2 level/HD + divine bonus + attribut modifier?

Yes thats right. The 'Effect' abilities still need a lot of work and they are missing a ton of examples.

Thanks again

No thanks necessary mate - its my job.