Immortals Handbook - Grimoire (Artifacts, Epic Magic discussion)

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey all! :)

Okay, this thread is for the discussion of all things relating to the Immortals Handbook - Grimoire or just Artifacts (and Epic Magic Items), Epic Spells, Dimensional Magic or anything similar.

What do you want to see in this book? What don't you want to see in this book?

For those who are not familiar with the Immortals Handbook - GRIMOIRE, it will be the pdf released after ASCENSION. When it will be released is another matter entirely (I am not famed for meeting my own deadlines) but I would like to think a December 2006 release is certainly possible.

As with the Monsters from the EPIC BESTIARY and the Divinity Templates and Powers from ASCENSION, expect the dials to go up to 11. With weapons that let you slay an entire species with one hit, or strike foes on the other side of the universe. To spells that can destroy planets or create black holes or even turn mortals into gods. But I'll be sure and cover the full spectrum of play from 21st-level to 1000th+.

At this point I expect the book to contain approx. 100 artifacts, 100 new armour (30 ish) and weapon (70 ish) special abilities, rules for dimensional magic and 100 new (epic) spells...among lots of other interesting stuff.

But if you have any ideas, thoughts or queries, this is the thread to voice them.
 
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U_K!
I have a minor concern, and this doesn't come from me. A gaming friend who has a penchant for playing archers noticed they are horrible in Epic. (Windwall beats em, deflect arrow feat tree beats em, etc)
Granted, archery is a rather impersonal style of combat, but it should still be able to do *Something* in epic. (Of course the logic of not everyone takes anti-arrow cheese, but in games I have seen, step 1 of any epic career is to pile on immunites. Arrows happen to be the easiest)
 

Rhuarc

Explorer
Hey UK mate :)

Cause I'm not a great friend of epic spellcasting I'm really looking forward to see your take on 10th level spells and above; True Dweomers ftw ^^
 

paradox42

Visitor
Really, from my own experience I have to say it's the loss of Power Attack as an option that prevents archers from being competitive in Epic play. Sure, arrows can be prevented from hitting at all, but that issue can also be applied to melee weapons via incorporeality or mobility effects that prevent opponents from getting in close. But when a Greatsword-wielding fighter or paladin can deal upwards of 100 points of damage from a single hit, with appropriate bonuses and buffs piled on, that arrow's 1d8+whatever starts to look pretty titchy by comparison. Even with Rapid Shot the archer can't compete with that, because the melee tank can also get multiple hits per round if the party's using good tactics.

But as for the contents of Grimoire that interest me, I'd have to say Dimensional Magic is what I'm most keen to see- is it an an add-on to the existing Epic spell mechanics, or a completely new system? Inquiring minds want to know...
 
paradox42 said:
Really, from my own experience I have to say it's the loss of Power Attack as an option that prevents archers from being competitive in Epic play. Sure, arrows can be prevented from hitting at all, but that issue can also be applied to melee weapons via incorporeality or mobility effects that prevent opponents from getting in close. But when a Greatsword-wielding fighter or paladin can deal upwards of 100 points of damage from a single hit, with appropriate bonuses and buffs piled on, that arrow's 1d8+whatever starts to look pretty titchy by comparison. Even with Rapid Shot the archer can't compete with that, because the melee tank can also get multiple hits per round if the party's using good tactics.

But as for the contents of Grimoire that interest me, I'd have to say Dimensional Magic is what I'm most keen to see- is it an an add-on to the existing Epic spell mechanics, or a completely new system? Inquiring minds want to know...
In groups I play in, most archers find some prestige class (Order of the Bow Innitiate, Deepwood sniper, Arcane archer, ETC) to enhance their damage dealing. Heck, we had a deepwood sniper in a game who was legendary for totally dealing a bazillion damage to an unprotected foe. ('Course thats what deepwood snipers do)
The issue is that with Incorporeality, movement, etc. They don't 100% ensure a miss. (and these tactics work against everything. An archer can't usually shoot someone out of 20 range increments inside a building, and neither can a fighter) Deflect Arrows + Infinite Deflection, does. Windwall stops all projectiles too. Granted I think the problem lies with there being few high level archer options (Most just require 13 dex). People should use manyshot more (I had a bloodhound/deepwoodsniper build that with a short bow, did 10d6 damage, with few to no magic items).
Many of my group who play melee machines will take the deflect arrow and arrow mitigation abilities, because since there strength is in Melee, they don't want to get attacked at a range, where they can't use their destructive, million damage melee to pulverise said puny archer.
I don't think archers need too much as far as advantages. Perhaps a bow-version of the Triple Throw epic weapon power, or an enchancement on their arrows making them Undeflectable.
(Sadly this plays into the war of absolutes)

As for what I want to see most in grimoire? I love artifacts and interesting magic items. I generally play the spellcaster in most games so mage goodies also sound good.
Oh, and things I liked from 2E could make a return. Like the Final Word Swords and Rings of Vampiric Regeneration. Maybe not epic, but cool.
 
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Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
Hiya mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
I have a minor concern, and this doesn't come from me. A gaming friend who has a penchant for playing archers noticed they are horrible in Epic. (Windwall beats em, deflect arrow feat tree beats em, etc)
Granted, archery is a rather impersonal style of combat, but it should still be able to do *Something* in epic. (Of course the logic of not everyone takes anti-arrow cheese, but in games I have seen, step 1 of any epic career is to pile on immunites. Arrows happen to be the easiest)
I think the main problem here is with the Deflect Arrows, and Infinite Deflection feats.

I think Deflect Arrows should require you to expend one of your attacks for each Arrow you deflect. So a 20th-level Monk would be able to Deflect 5 arrows per round provided they took no other actions.

To replace Infinite Deflection I would probably make a feat that meant you innately knew which arrows were going to hit you, so you need only choose to Deflect the arrows that are definatly going to strike you.

With regards Wind Wall and similar spells, I see this being sorted through virtual size categories. With strength 25, you should be able to shoot through a wind wall spell, though perhaps a 50% miss chance for Str 25+ (or Large), 25% miss chance for Str 40+ (or Huge), 12.5% miss chance for Str 55+ (or Gargantuan), 5% miss chance for Str 70+ (or Colossal), No miss chance for Str 85+, (or Titanic or above).
 
U_K!
Upper_Krust said:
I think Deflect Arrows should require you to expend one of your attacks for each Arrow you deflect. So a 20th-level Monk would be able to Deflect 5 arrows per round provided they took no other actions.
Good idea, but what about a monk (and the legality of this is debatable) fighting with Two-weapon fightning? (Debatable because the description of monk says they are automatically assumed to do this, hence the flurry, but the rules don't say they can't. I think it helps monks personally, but it really is only cheese when you consider that monks can fight with their unarmed weapons reguardless of anything they hold in their hands. Some consider this to mean they can even make all their unarmed attacks with all their armed ones. ARRRGH why couldn't they just give monks full Bab and trash the crazy flurry/special unarmed attack rules they get that confuse everyone, including WotC :))
 
I got an idea for a spell yesterday, and since it seems like it would go beyond 9th level in power, I thought I'd put it here. Basically, the caster calls up a hand of molten iron from the earth, minimum Large size, increases every (#) caster levels to a maximum of two size categories smaller than the size of the planet the caster is on. The hand can grab a creature or object up to one size category smaller than itself. First round, the grabbed creature/object is trapped, suffering lots of heat damage. Second round, the target is squeezed, taking LOTS of crushing and heat damage, third round, if the target hasn't escaped somehow, it is dragged back into the earth. Vulnerability to crushing, fire, or suffocation means a quick death, otherwise the target is imprisoned.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
U_K!

Good idea, but what about a monk (and the legality of this is debatable) fighting with Two-weapon fightning? (Debatable because the description of monk says they are automatically assumed to do this, hence the flurry, but the rules don't say they can't. I think it helps monks personally, but it really is only cheese when you consider that monks can fight with their unarmed weapons reguardless of anything they hold in their hands. Some consider this to mean they can even make all their unarmed attacks with all their armed ones. ARRRGH why couldn't they just give monks full Bab and trash the crazy flurry/special unarmed attack rules they get that confuse everyone, including WotC :))
I'd just give them the full amount of attacks when determining how many arrows they could deflect.

By the way, regarding Bow Wielders, has no one done a Rapid Shot feat chain yet? Improved, Greater, Perfect?

Also I was just wondering, how powerful would Manyshot be if you could use it as part of your Full Attack action.

e.g. 60th-level Ranger BAB +40, with Perfect Rapid Shot, and hasted = 9 Attacks/Round (all at -8* penalty). Then allow Perfect Manyshot with each attack 8 arrows per shot (all Shots at -14*) for a total of 72 shots per round.

*-22 total.

I'm thinking it would be a cosmic ability or possibly even transcendental - it seems very powerful.

Improved Manyshot (Epic feat) - Manyshot works at any range
Superior Manyshot (Divine Ability) - Manyshot deals critical damage
Perfect Manyshot (Cosmic Ability) - Combine Manyshot with Full Attack Action
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey Servitor matey! :)

Servitor of Wrath said:
I got an idea for a spell yesterday, and since it seems like it would go beyond 9th level in power, I thought I'd put it here. Basically, the caster calls up a hand of molten iron from the earth, minimum Large size, increases every (#) caster levels to a maximum of two size categories smaller than the size of the planet the caster is on. The hand can grab a creature or object up to one size category smaller than itself. First round, the grabbed creature/object is trapped, suffering lots of heat damage. Second round, the target is squeezed, taking LOTS of crushing and heat damage, third round, if the target hasn't escaped somehow, it is dragged back into the earth. Vulnerability to crushing, fire, or suffocation means a quick death, otherwise the target is imprisoned.
Cool idea...or should that be hot. ;)

You could (unofficially) call it Bigby's Molten Metal Mitt. :D
 
Upper_Krust said:
Hiya mate! :)



I'd just give them the full amount of attacks when determining how many arrows they could deflect.

By the way, regarding Bow Wielders, has no one done a Rapid Shot feat chain yet? Improved, Greater, Perfect?

Also I was just wondering, how powerful would Manyshot be if you could use it as part of your Full Attack action.

e.g. 60th-level Ranger BAB +40, with Perfect Rapid Shot, and hasted = 9 Attacks/Round (all at -8* penalty). Then allow Perfect Manyshot with each attack 8 arrows per shot (all Shots at -14*) for a total of 72 shots per round.

*-22 total.

I'm thinking it would be a cosmic ability or possibly even transcendental - it seems very powerful.

Improved Manyshot (Epic feat) - Manyshot works at any range
Superior Manyshot (Divine Ability) - Manyshot deals critical damage
Perfect Manyshot (Cosmic Ability) - Combine Manyshot with Full Attack Action
The suggested perfect manyshot ability would be powerful as a damage dealer. You could of course just allow for things like firing Orichalcum Arrows and such. (But not both, it would deal way too much damage. Like, thousands of dice too much)
A Rapid shot line of feats would be cool.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
The suggested perfect manyshot ability would be powerful as a damage dealer. You could of course just allow for things like firing Orichalcum Arrows and such. (But not both, it would deal way too much damage. Like, thousands of dice too much)
A Rapid shot line of feats would be cool.
I agree about the orichalcum arrows, although the modifier depends on the weight, and of course you need the strength prereq. to use Orichalcum anyway.

A power like Phase Shot would also probably help you reach your target in this manner.

However, I'm going to have to ban us all from this thread for derailing the topic and talking about powers in stead of items/spells. :p

Here are a few things I posted many months ago about balancing the (epic) spells above 9th-level.

20th-level spell ~ Teleport City
30th-level spell ~ Stasise Country
40th-level Spell ~ Anti-Magic Entire Planets Surface
50th-level spell ~ Destroy Planet
60th-level spell ~ Create Sun
70th-level spell ~ Summon Black Hole

90th-level spell ~ Move Galaxy

120th-level spell ~ Create Big Bang (So the base Prereqs for this spell would be Int 130 and 111 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats). I wonder what the minimum level to cast this is...? :D
 

paradox42

Visitor
Upper_Krust said:
However, I'm going to have to ban us all from this thread for derailing the topic and talking about powers in stead of items/spells. :p
I wonder what happens if a Moderator gets banned from a forum he or she moderates? If it can even be done, can they just un-ban themselves? I don't advise experimenting, but it's an interesting thought. :D

Upper_Krust said:
120th-level spell ~ Create Big Bang (So the base Prereqs for this spell would be Int 130 and 111 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats). I wonder what the minimum level to cast this is...? :D
Probably somewhere around Demiurge Stage II, since at an absolute minimum you'd need 354 hit dice to get that many feats (and that assumes you spend feat slots on nothing else once you can take AMC at all, which is absurd). Since Demiurges are supposed to be the beings that give rise to universes at all, that seems fairly appropriate to me... :)
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey paradox mate! :)

paradox42 said:
I wonder what happens if a Moderator gets banned from a forum he or she moderates? If it can even be done, can they just un-ban themselves? I don't advise experimenting, but it's an interesting thought. :D
Something like that would probably create an umbral. :p

paradox42 said:
Probably somewhere around Demiurge Stage II, since at an absolute minimum you'd need 354 hit dice to get that many feats (and that assumes you spend feat slots on nothing else once you can take AMC at all, which is absurd). Since Demiurges are supposed to be the beings that give rise to universes at all, that seems fairly appropriate to me... :)
But what if you expended divine ability slots to get AMC feats. Also remember that Epic Class Levels typically give more feats than mere Hit Dice. ;)
 

Fieari

Explorer
I'm assuming then that the Grimorie will include some sort of metamagic feat that will lower a spell's level? Or are you just going to add a new use to AMC?
 
Lessee...a greater deity Wiz80 created from an ascended human who rolled an 18 for Int could have Int 70 at that point without feats. After wishes and a headband of intellect +6, an Int of 81. 16 divine abilities could net the deity 96 feats in addition to 20 epic feats from basic progression and 20 from wizard bonus feats. 136 epic feats in total...put 49 into Great Intelligence and that leaves 87 for AutoMetaCapacity. 24 feats/4 divine abilities short. So a greater deity with minimum levels and DvR 20 could recreate the Big Bang.
 

paradox42

Visitor
Servitor of Wrath said:
Lessee...a greater deity Wiz80 created from an ascended human who rolled an 18 for Int could have Int 70 at that point without feats. After wishes and a headband of intellect +6, an Int of 81. 16 divine abilities could net the deity 96 feats in addition to 20 epic feats from basic progression and 20 from wizard bonus feats. 136 epic feats in total...put 49 into Great Intelligence and that leaves 87 for AutoMetaCapacity. 24 feats/4 divine abilities short. So a greater deity with minimum levels and DvR 20 could recreate the Big Bang.
This hypothetical ascended Wizard gets an extra Divine ability, or at any rate an extra six feat slots. Any epic character above level 25 or so with access to item creation abilities (in itself or others) will go for the epic ability-boosting items instead of regular. So that Headband of INT +6 should, at the very least, be a Headband +12 instead. That's as far as the SRD goes, so going purely on published items that's all we can get, but the prices are trivial to extrapolate from there for higher ones- and I think we can all agree that an 80th-level character would be able to afford much better than merely +12. Enough to get the extra +18 to INT? I would estimate yes, but I admit I haven't actually bothered to work out the numbers yet.

Of course, my estimates have proven to be off in the past, so I'll just leave with that thought.
 

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