Imp Init for rogues?

[TracerBullet42]

Ok, I've seen it written nearly a million times now, but I still don't see why Improved Initiative is such a "must have" for rogues. I understand you're trying for that suprise round sneak attack, but does it really come up where you can close to within 30' for a ranged sneak attack?

I understand that it can't hurt, but with the few feats a rogue gets, it just doesn't seem worth it to use one on Imp Init.

Convince me otherwise!

 

[S'mon]

Surprise round - partial action - Sneak Attack.

Round 1: Win Initiative - Full Round Action - *multiple* Sneak Attacks.

 

[Thanee]

Sneak Attack = good.
Improved Initiative = more Sneak Attack.

I'll leave the conclusion to you.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Westwind]

I think the general rule of thumb on Improved Initiative is that high-dex characters get the least amount of benefit from it since they generally go first already. There will be encounters in which having the feat means getting your sneak attack damage but, for the most part, more often you will have gone first regardless. PGtF indroduces some feats (Thug, Blooded) that give a small boost to initiative but have other benefits as well. When I first started playing 3.0 I picked Improved Initiative for characters with a Dex of 18 or a Dex of 10, but not much in the middle. Nowadays, I just go for it with the Dex 10 Knight characters.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Optimum combat: Rogue is hidden and 20' (30') away from their mark.

Surprise round: [Partial] Charge, SA.
Next round: win Init, full attack of SA goodness.
Intermission: Other party members help you set up a flank.

or:

Surprise round: Manyshot.
Next round: Win init, Rapidshot.

The first round of combat is where the rogue's Oomph is at. After that, the rogue's damage potential drops dramatically.

If you're a good rogue and take out the weakest link (or have your party focus on the strongest), you've already taken a good third to half of the antagonist's offensive power at the first round. Improved Initiative is insurance to add to your already high init to give you a huge advantage in gaining the jump on someone, preferably the opposing spellcasters.

 

[Thanee]

BTW, Improved Initiative is a must-have not only for rogues, but pretty much every character at higher levels.

High level combat is won either by preparation or by higher initiative.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Henry]

I think the general rule of thumb on Improved Initiative is that high-dex characters get the least amount of benefit from it since they generally go first already.

In my experience this has been untrue. The more init bonuses and spot bonuses a rogue can get, the more likely he is to get in at LEAST two sneak attacks before anything begins, if not more due to full-round actions. Because the init roll is still based on a d20, even having blooded, improved init, and an 18 DEX does not mean you will go first all the time; I've seen hyperfast rogues roll a 10 or 12 total, and I've seen the 10 Dex knight get a 20 init. Every +1 helps a rogue get in multiple sneaks, and unless your party works well together for flankings and such it may be the ONLY time he gets in sneak attacks.

That said, it seems to be more useful to low-level characters than high. By 10th level or so, You have high tumbling to get into flanking positions, you have means of invisibility at most times to automatically put your foe off-guard, etc.

 

[diaglo]

let us not also forget the broken nature of imp init.

a +4 is just outrageous compared to other plus scores...

 

[diaglo]

and yet another reason that it is by far the most common feat taken in the 2000ed MM.

98 monsters have it.

the next feat on the list in weapon focus at 49.

 

[Kemrain]

Diaglo, I'll assume you weren't trying to be funny and reply in all seriousness. A +4 bonus isn't outrageous when it's applied to rolls that don't come up very often or only in specific circomstances. There is plenty of precidence set for it. Improved X gives a +4 to X, be it Initiative, Disarm, Trip, Grapple... They don't all fit the bill, but most work this way, and give other benefits as well! Improved Initiative is a useful feat, but it's a weak feat, that doesn't really hold up to others mathmatically.

Going first in combat can be a very good thing, or it can be next to useless, it depends on your build and what you intend to do with your initiative. It's good for Rogues, because of Flat-Footed Sneak Attack Goodness. It's good for Casters because it means 2 Spells before your opponent can react. It's good for Fighters because it means a standard, and full attack. However, like was stated earlier, Improved Initiative doesn't make you 100% likley to win initiative. It doesn't even make you 50% more likley. +4 is about 20%, and that can make or break you in some cases, but in most it comes down to luck.

Improved Initiative is a feat that is decent for anyone to have, but there are other feats out there that are much stronger. I'm for making Imp. Init. a more powerful feat, but as far as I know, I'm in a minority camp. I take the feat often, but I like Flat-Footed Sneak Attack Goodness, myself.

- Kemrain the Improved.