Impact of increasing the effect of flatfooted?

[Plane Sailing]

I'm toying with the idea of increasing the penalty of flatfootedness slightly - as it stands, a target is denied his dex bonus (but still keeps any penalty), and he can be sneak attacked.

Catching someone flatfooted is great if you are a rogue, but doesn't make much difference in many other cases unless a target is, for some reason, mostly dependent on Dex for armour.

There is a strange situation where someone who has a Dex of 11 or less is completely unaffected by being caught flatfooted, but those with higher Dex are penalised. Someone with a high dex can't react but someone with a very low Dex (say 4) can somehow react quickly enough that his penalty is included by him stumbling into the way of an attack!

I'm wondering about a method of ensuring that *everyone* is penalised.

I'm considering treating flatfooted foes as having a Dex of 0, regardless of their normal Dex. They are literally caught while they are not moving, completely by surprise.

If you think about it, even a Dex 4 oaf has a bonus compared to a chair... it is easy to think about him having a -3 penalty to his AC, but in actual fact he has a +2 bonus compared to that chair, since he has a (small) but significantly better chance of getting out of the way.

I would effectively be assuming that the base AC of anything is 5, (as per a medium sized object made of flesh), and that the Dex bonus goes from +1 at Dex = 2, to +5 at Dex = 10 and +9 at Dex = 18. Naturally I'm not going to use this as-is... I don't want Reflex Saves to go through the roof! I'm trying to give an insight into the concept I'm considering.

I read back through this and it seems a little garbled. The short version would look like this.

"Attacks against a flatfooted opponent get +5 hit and the opponent doesn't count any Dex modifier to AC because they are treated as if Dex=0"

I know some people will hate this idea I wonder if anyone thinks it might have some merit?

Cheers

 

[Crothian]

One thing you forgot and it's not that big a deal is that if you are flatfooted you cannot make AoO.

I think you might be making catching someone flatfooted too powerful. By doing this they cannot make reflex saves (creatures with a 0 dex can't make reflex saves).

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd missed that about Reflex saves... maybe I'd give them Dex 1 then

 

[Crothian]

I'd missed that about Reflex saves... maybe I'd give them Dex 1 then

That's better. You are making going first in combat and surprise rounds more important. If that's what you want to have happen, I think it'll happen. Basically, everyone flatfooted would be at -5 AC under this version of the rule, then he writen one.

 

[Darke]

Hm, if I would use such a rule then only in surprise rounds and not in normal fights. I think it would make the advantage of just wining the Ini too big.

das Darke

 

[Someone]

"Attacks against a flatfooted opponent get +5 hit and the opponent doesn't count any Dex modifier to AC because they are treated as if Dex=0"

I know some people will hate this idea I wonder if anyone thinks it might have some merit?

Cheers

You´re right, I somehow don´t like the idea. Note that this way a flat-footed person is easier to hit than a mannequin. Changing it to Dex 1 makes striking both things equally easy.

And note that if you surprise someone you have a big bonus; an extra partial action.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I have to say that even with the dex=1 modification, I don't much like this. Consider the situations in which initiative but not surprise counts (and as others pointed out, surprise gives an extra partial action which is an incredible reward for getting the drop on your foes:

1. Party of scouts hails the party and sees through their disguises. People on both sides draw steel but they aren't attacking yet. The leader of the scouts demands that the PCs come with them. The PCs refuse. The scouts begin their attack. Roll initiative. Both sides are aware of each other and on their guard. In this case initiative merely decides the order in which the parties react to the opening of hostilities. It seems unreasonable to penalize AC by 4 or more in this instance.

2. Party is sneaking along a dungeon corridoor. A band of orcs is doing the same. Neither side is aware of each other until they round the corner. There is no surprise round since both sides were surprised. The orcs gain initiative, draw their weapons and charge the PCs. In this case, both sides are surprised to see the others. Even in this case, though, it doesn't make sense that the orcs would be able to recognize the situation, draw their weapons, cover the distance between the parties, and attack before the PCs picked their jaws off the floor. They just happened to fumble their weapons out of their sheathes a split-second earlier. Saying that the PCs are as easy to hit as combat dummies seems excessive in this case.

3. Surprise round. The party is moving through the forest when they are ambushed by a band of gnolls. The ranger and the rogue spot the ambush and are not surprised but the rest of the PCs don't spot it. If the gnolls win initiative under these rules, they would get to attack the ranger whose dex is treated as 1 even though he spotted the ambush and is not surprised. Furthermore, it seems somewhat silly to treat the entire party as dex 1 unmoving objects when they are in fact walking along the path chatting with each other. Sure they're not dodging and aren't aware of the danger but they're not immobile either.

Also note that this would make uncanny dodge much too powerful. Characters with Uncanny Dodge (dex bonus) would have ACs 4 to 9 points higher than characters without it if they lost initiative. Isn't there already enough incentive for fighters to multiclass barbarian? This would practically make it a requirement.

Finally, it's worth noting that the inability to take AoOs before your initiative (unless you have combat reflexes) is very significant. If the enemies decide to disarm, sunder or grapple, the PCs will not be able to take the AoOs they're normally entitled to and will probably end up grappled or disarmed (which puts them at a huge disadvantage). Initiative is significant enough already without adding this rule.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In option 1 the party wouldn't be flatfooted - I would rule that is a clear situation where both parties were aware and ready as per DMG.

option 2 - well, basically the party recovered second. It doesn't make sense in D&D that you can charge 60ft and attack a man with a crossbow before he can shoot you, but thats the way it is we give up some realism for simplicity.

option 3 - although flatfooted, the ranger and rogue don't lose actions in the surprise round, which is still a big advantage for having spotted the ambush.

Does it become mandatory for fighters to take a level of barbarian? Funnily enough I've never seen it done, and at present the only ones who might possibly do it are high dex low armour fighters.

I don't find any of these points convincing arguments for *not* increasing the flatfooted penalty. As it stands, apart from the AoO issue non-rogues get very little from catching someone flatfooted.

And, if I don't do this, how do we explain the fact that low Dex people can react quickly enough to cause a penalty, while other people can't? I'd appreciate any logical suggestions for explaining this apparent anomaly!

 

[pontus]

You want a low Dex character to suffer as much from being flat-footed as a high Dex character? Then leave the Dex alone and just give flat-footed people a fixed circumstance penalty to AC instead.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Yes, the simplest solution which would encapsulate everything would be to give a +5 bonus to hit flatfooted targets. This favours high dex people more and is worse for low dex characters - but there are very few of those around anyway.