Improved Grab ability question...

Dendread

First Post
Just a quick question I had on a topic that always seemed vague...
Creatures like behirs and krakens have an extraordinary ability called Improved Grab that is often used as a segue into abilities like constrict or swallow whole if they hit with a specific attack.

Now, my question is, say you have a behir that hits with it's bite and succeeds at grappling an opponent using its improved grab ability. Does it on the same round swallow whole or constrict or does it wait until the next round to make these special attacks?

And, when (before or after) or on the opponent’s (grappled creature's) turn, does it check to see if it can maintain the grapple.

Just wondering. Thanks for any help you can offer. Ciao!


~W.S.
 

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Relevent rules from SRD, emphasis added

If the creature hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required, and Tiny and Small creatures do not suffer a special size penalty. Unless otherwise stated, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it suffers a -20 penalty to grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any additional damage unless the creature also has the constrict ability. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage listed for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is listed in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature is not considered grappled while it holds the opponent, so it still threatens adjacent squares and retains its Dexterity bonus. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Since it is a free action, this happens in the same round as when the character gets hit.

Yes, improved grab is nasty, especially when combined with Rend or Constrict.
 

Dendread said:
Now, my question is, say you have a behir that hits with it's bite and succeeds at grappling an opponent using its improved grab ability. Does it on the same round swallow whole or constrict or does it wait until the next round to make these special attacks?

If it has the constrict ability, it does damage in the same round it gets a successful hold. The swallow whole ability would have to be used on the next round, since it needs to begin its turn with the target held in its mouth, at which point a successful grapple check allows it to swallow the target. Both of these are clarified in MM2, which has much clearer information about improved grab and grappling (and most monster abilities) than either the PHB or the SRD.
 

maddman75 said:
Relevent rules from SRD, emphasis added
Since it is a free action, this happens in the same round as when the character gets hit.
Well, no. It takes another grapple check to do the swallowing. The number of grapple checks per round is based on BAB and so might happen the same round if the critter has the attacks left. Otherwise it has to wait until next round. Constriction, works differently (see below).

Here's my personal close-combat summary, which is my best guess at how all this is supposed to work.

- - - - -

Code:
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------------------- C L O S E   C O M B A T ------------------- 

To begin grappling, you must grab the opponent, get a hold, and 
then move in:

1) Grab the Opponent: As a standard attack, try to get a hand on 
   the defender: an unarmed touch attack. This will often provoke 
   an attack of opportunity. If that AoO does damage, then the 
   grapple attempt fails right here. You can make a grab attempt  
   in place of each attack you normally get. 

2) Get a Hold: Roll an opposed grapple check (base attack bonus + 
   strength vs. base attack bonus plus either strength or dex).
   Small characters get –4, large get +4 and so on. If you lose, 
   then that is the end of the attempt. 

3) Close In: If you do get a hold, then you move into the space 
   with your opponent and are officially grappling with them. You 
   also get to inflict the damage from a single unarmed attack on 
   the opponent as you close in. This is usually d3+str subdual 
   damage.


Fighting in Close
---------------------------------------------------------------
Once you are grappled (or grappling), then

· You can only use unarmed attacks or light weapons
· You have no threatened area.
· You lose your Dex bonus to AC against people you are not grappling.
· You cannot leave the space.
· Two weapon fighting is not possible.
· You can take no actions other than to attack, prepare an item (or 
  spell component), or try a non-somatic spell or ability.
· Doing anything complicated while grappling requires a 
  Concentration(20+) check.

On subsequent actions (after the grab and close) you can make an 
opposed grapple check as a standard attack option. You can do this 
once for each unarmed attack that you would normally get (The FAQ 
says, for monsters, to use the BAB to find the number of grapple 
checks allowed, and don’t add attacks based on number of appendages). 
For each one that you win, you can do one of the following:

1) Do unarmed damage (plus constriction damage).
2) Pin your opponent for 1 round (they are effectively paralyzed, 
   but not helpless, until just before your grapple roll next round).
3) Break a pin that someone else has on a friend of yours in this 
   same grapple.

If you are pinning someone, you can only do unarmed attacks against 
them. Other people can use weapons, and also get a +4 to hit the 
victim. You cannot attack, or try to pin someone else while pinning 
someone.


Breaking Close Combat
---------------------------------------------------------------
To get out of close combat you have to try to break the grapple as 
standard attack action. Roll either an opposed grapple check, or an 
opposed Escape Artist vs. the opponent(s) grapple check. You have to 
roll better than ALL opponents to get out of the pile. 

If you succeed, then you can still move, or do a move equivalent if 
you have actions left. Technically, you are not prone when grappled 
and so you do not have to take the time to stand up before moving.


Attacks of Opportunity
---------------------------------------------------------------
The initial grab is an unarmed melee touch attack and so may well 
provoke an attack of opportunity from your opponent. If it does, and 
the attack of opportunity inflicts damage, then that ends the 
grapple attempt.

The “close in” move is basically a 5ft step and so rarely provokes 
attacks from nearby enemies. If you charge and grapple, or move and 
grapple, then you might provoke attacks of opportunity as normal 
(for crossing threatened areas). You have to be able to move far 
enough to enter the defender’s space in order to try a grapple. Note 
that the defender does NOT get an attack of opportunity because of 
this last five feet.

The unarmed damage for closing in occurs right before the move, and 
so before any attacks that the move may cause. It is rather odd that 
a 30ft move and grapple would be resolved as a 25ft move, a grab 
check, a grapple check, and then the last 5ft of movement; but that 
is the way it works.


Improved Grab
---------------------------------------------------------------
Certain monsters have this feat and it modifies the above rules as 
follows:

.  They can start a grapple as a free action after hitting (and doing 
   damage) with a normal melee attack.

.  These creatures do not provoke an attack of opportunity for the 
   initial grab, nor do they have to roll to hit for this grab. It 
   already hit with the melee attack.

.  After the grab, the creature can do one of two things: conduct 
   the grapple normally, or conduct a “improved hold”. Both options 
   require a standard grapple check, though the creature suffers a –20 
   penalty in the case of an improved hold (I say “improved” because 
   the PHB also uses the term “hold”.).

.  If the grapple is conducted normally, the creature does NOT 
   inflict more damage when it moves in, since it already inflicted 
   damage right before the free grab. But it does add “constrict” 
   damage at this time if applicable.

.  On subsequent actions, more grapple checks can be made (up to one 
   per attack, number of attacks based on BAB only). A success deals 
   damage equal to the initial melee attack, plus any constriction 
   damage that they creature may have. If the check fails, then the 
   victim is still grappled, but takes no damage. These future 
   grapple checks can result in special effects (like being swallowed) 
   regardless of whether it is a standard check or an improved hold 
   check.

An “improved” hold has the following characteristics:

1) Unless otherwise stated, this grab only works against opponents 
   smaller than the attacker.
2) It uses one appendage to maintain the hold.
3) The victim is drawn into the creature’s space, though no attacks 
   of opportunity arise from this.
4) The creature is not considered grappled itself: the creature does 
   not move into the victim’s space, does not lose Dex, and can still 
   conduct melee combat, and move, as normal.
5) Improved holds incur a –20 penalty on grapple checks.
6) Escaping from an improved hold is the same as escaping from a 
   normal grapple, though the holder is at –20 on the check.

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