Improved Grab Question

[Xanterith]

Just trying to organize combat rounds for Brown Bear with improved grab and want to see if I have this right.

If the first claw hits and initiates a grapple successfully, what happens with the second claw? I know the bear can attack with it at a -4, but if it hits does it then initiate a grapple as well, or is this impossible because the target is already grappling?

Also, can you wait until the attack routine is complete to resolve the grapple check, or does it have to happen right away?

Last question, what happens in round 2? Can you attack at -4, hit, initiate a grapple or do you simply have to grapple?

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[frankthedm]

Rules on this get a bit messy. One of those thing i prefer to houserule. From the way it seems the RAW works currently;

When the first claw hits, if the bear initiates a grapple successfully, It seems the rest of the natural attacks are lost for that round. Now if that grab had been done with it's bite, the bear would be able to move with the prey at it's normal speed.

The bear can choose not to activate improved grab when it hits, but I do not believe it can wait until after the other attacks are rolled. Though it may be able to grab off one of those instead.

Second round it uses it's full bab based iterative attack to "Damage Opponent". Each one of those it succeeds deals Unarmed strike damage [1d4+str non lethal] AND [Claw damage]. If it also had constrict, that damage would be done as well. If it wanted to it could instead make a single claw attack at -4.

 

[kreynolds]

Note that if the bear chooses to use only it's claw to conduct the grapple, this frees up its remaining natural weapons, but it takes a penalty on the grapple...

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

EDIT: Said bite, and meant claw.

 

[Xanterith]

Ok, but what about how it says that you can use a natural weapon when grappling at a -4?

While Grappling: "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks"

That's where it get's messy. Because if a claw hits it initiates a grapple as a free action my question is how does that work if you are already grappling?

The rules are also foggy on whether or not you HAVE to maintain a grapple:
"Maintain Grapple: To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1."

At no point does it say that you HAVE to move into the targets space to maintain a grapple.

It seems to me that you could attack, hit, deal damage, grapple for free, win, do damage, release and repeat.


Another question - what is the damage from a grappling bear? Is it a 1d4 for an unarmed strike, or the claw damage?

 

[frankthedm]

Do note, if the moster does not have constrict, there is no extra damge dealt by improved grab when the grab is established, only on subsequent rounds.

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space.

No fog there. If the monster does win, the victim gets yanked into the monster's space.

 

[Xanterith]

Improved Grab
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

The important part of the above passage is that the creature has two options:

A) Grapple as normal - this is the foggy part
B) Hold. Everything following that or statement is in reference to the hold, not to a "normal" grapple.

 

[kreynolds]

Ok, but what about how it says that you can use a natural weapon when grappling at a -4?

While Grappling: "You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks"

That's where it get's messy. Because if a claw hits it initiates a grapple as a free action my question is how does that work if you are already grappling?

It can start a grapple, but it doesn't have to. If the bear does not want to start a grapple, it does not have to start a grapple. The improved grab ability simply allows the bear to start a grapple with a regular attack, instead of using a touch attack and forgoing damage.

If during the grapple, the bear damages its opponent with another claw, it does not start a grapple again. It just smacks the bugger out of them.

The rules are also foggy on whether or not you HAVE to maintain a grapple:
"Maintain Grapple: To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Not really foggy. From the Improved Grab description...

"When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space."

This is contrary to the grappler normally moving into the opponent's space.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1."

At no point does it say that you HAVE to move into the targets space to maintain a grapple.

Right, because you can move into their space.

It seems to me that you could attack, hit, deal damage, grapple for free, win, do damage, release and repeat.

Yes, but I think the advantage for the bear, if it can do so with the -20 penalty, would be to maintain the grapple and smack the opponent around with its remaining attacks.

Another question - what is the damage from a grappling bear? Is it a 1d4 for an unarmed strike, or the claw damage?

Claw damage, I believe.

 

[frankthedm]

B) Hold. Everything following that or statement is in reference to the hold, not to a "normal" grapple.

I see what direction you are coming from. But i do believe the "hold" is not a seperate state as the term is used also in the grapple rules. It is not a sepreate state used for when a monster is only using one appendage to grapple someone. Though it can look like that is the case.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't think "hold" is a separate state either. Whether I use my whole body or just one arm, if I maintain the grapple, I hold.

 

[Xanterith]

Ok that makes sense. I checked the grapple rules and the 3rd step is "Hold" so I guess the ambiguous wording in this case is appropriate as it refers to both conditions. Both grapples (either the one hand held or the full on grapple) are the same except for the special conditions of the one "arm" hold.

Now - would you allow a bear that has a target grappled 3 attacks per round? Could each of those be grapples? Or would you simply allow only what the base attack allows?

Personally, I would let all three as grapple checks for damage go, or you could just attack at a -4 to hit on each attack, maintaining the grapple.