Improving a core Dragon Disciple build

[Dandu]

Here is a Dragon Disciple build of mine who I have made as an exercise in optimizing in core.

How can we make it better?

 

[Shin Okada]

What does "Core" mean in this case? You are only using core classes but at least using magic items which are not in core rules.

 

[Dandu]

Which magic items are not core? The Eternal Wands? Those follow the custom item creation guidelines.

 

[Shin Okada]

OK, so you are allowed to make magic items not in DMG as long as it is within guideline in DMG. Actually, that may allow you tons of cheesy combos but I will not mention it as the possibility is nearly infinite. I just assume that you use classes, feats & spells in core rules.

First of all I don't think spiked chain + bite combo is that great. When using your natural weapon with an artificial weapon, your bite is treated as a secondary attack. Thus you can apply only half your strength mod for damage. That is only +3. And you can't use it when using spiked chain's reach. So If I were you I will never bother taking Mutiattack if I were to make a spiked chain wielder.

And the attack line for your natural attacks seems wrong. you don't get multiple attacks due to high BAB for your natural weapons.

So, when using spiked chain, you only get one +15 (1d8+3) reach 1 bite attack in addition to spiked chain attacks, even with your Multiattack feat. That is not so great. If I were you I will take another feat for spiked chain. Even Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) will be much useful.

Well, personally, I am not a big fun of spiked chain tripper. At 12+ level, you would better expect fighting a lot of large or larger and/or 4+ feet monsters, with reach. Even with your high strength, bonus from spiked chain and improved trip feat, it is very hard to trip such melee monsters. Also, depends on DMs, wasting a round for using wand of enlarge person is impractical. Often you had better move and attack something hard from the first round of the combat. And note that you can't apply Enlarge Person on yourself once you finished taking all the 10 levels of Dragon Disciple class. You will become a dragon (as a creature type). Thus, not a person anymore.

Your AC is miserable as a 12th-level melee warrior and rage will even lower it. And you are using vicious weapon. That means you will be very fragile even with your high HPs total. I doubt Rhino Hide worth it's value in this case. With only core rules, it is often very hard to charge. Your friends, difficult terrain, often blocks your charging line. And reach (and large size which Enlarge Person grants you) makes you even more difficult to charge.

I will wear better armor and consider buying some animated shield. And/or use greatsword (maybe made of adamantine) instead of spiked chain + Rhino Hide.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Which magic items are not core? The Eternal Wands? Those follow the custom item creation guidelines.

Sort of. They have a different multiplier, and that value changes depending on the spell level (level 1 is 820 and higher than a regular wand's 750; somewhere between there and level 3 the multiplier for eternal wands becomes lower than for normal wands).

 

[Dandu]

Alright, I see. I guess it's not totally core, then. The rest of it is supposed to be, though.

 

[Dandu]

And the attack line for your natural attacks seems wrong. you don't get multiple attacks due to high BAB for your natural weapons.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

So, when using spiked chain, you only get one +15 (1d8+3) reach 1 bite attack in addition to spiked chain attacks, even with your Multiattack feat. That is not so great. If I were you I will take another feat for spiked chain. Even Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) will be much useful.

Do you have any suggestions other than WF, because it really doesn't seem worth the feat slot, and I can't really think of anything which is why I put in Multiattack.

Well, personally, I am not a big fun of spiked chain tripper. At 12+ level, you would better expect fighting a lot of large or larger and/or 4+ feet monsters, with reach. Even with your high strength, bonus from spiked chain and improved trip feat, it is very hard to trip such melee monsters.

The only other thing I could think of doing with the melee character was Spring Attack, which didn't really seem very useful. Do you have a suggestion for what to do other than Improved Trip?

Also, depends on DMs, wasting a round for using wand of enlarge person is impractical. Often you had better move and attack something hard from the first round of the combat.

True, but there's no reason not to have the wands.

And note that you can't apply Enlarge Person on yourself once you finished taking all the 10 levels of Dragon Disciple class. You will become a dragon (as a creature type). Thus, not a person anymore.

1. I don't plan on taking more levels.
2. If I did, I'd ditch the wands of Enlarge Person and get a wand of Polymoprh.

Your AC is miserable as a 12th-level melee warrior and rage will even lower it. And you are using vicious weapon. That means you will be very fragile even with your high HPs total. I doubt Rhino Hide worth it's value in this case. With only core rules, it is often very hard to charge. Your friends, difficult terrain, often blocks your charging line. And reach (and large size which Enlarge Person grants you) makes you even more difficult to charge.

I will wear better armor and consider buying some animated shield. And/or use greatsword (maybe made of adamantine) instead of spiked chain + Rhino Hide.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, if I were you I will fully enjoy Dragon Disciple levels. If the game starts at 12th-level, you can have 7 levels in Dragon Disciple. Blindsense (L5), +2 Con (L6) & +3 NA (L7) are all too good. And DD has better selection of class skills comparing to Barbarian, Fighter & Sorcerer. Then with 3 more levels you can complete this prestige class. Trust me, immunities due to being Dragon, extraordinary (non-magic) flight & another +4 strength are really, really nice.

Aside from Barbarian or Fighter, Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple can make a solid build with high AC and saves. But other combination will just work fine.

Well, unless you can somehow make a full attack wit a charge (IIRC there is no way to do this within core rules), I will never investigate much on charging tactics. High strength, two-handed weapon & power attack are every melee warrior's friend. Max-out Strength and Constitution above all. That is the way Dragon Disciples should go.

As per feats, it depends largely on what you want to do. Simply using greatsword (have the best damage in PHB) and taking related feats such as Weapon Focus and Improved Critical may work, if not so amazing.

If you really want to use a Spiked Chain, you would better raising Dex some and take Combat Reflexes instead of (or before) taking Expertise-Improved Trip feat chain. This feat is good for someone with reach even if he has no Dex bonus as he can make a AoO while flat-footed.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Here is a Dragon Disciple build of mine who I have made as an exercise in optimizing in core.

How can we make it better?

How are you wearing a Preceipt + an amulet: you can to combine them (50% more cost) if you want both because they are the same slot.

You need Defenses (you can pick which):
Rings of Protection, potions of Barkskin (since amulet used), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 insight, slotless: cost less if you made it slotted), Gloves of Dex (if armor allows)

Why Sorc 2 instead of Bard 2? You'd then have Inspire Courage when still functions in rage (can't cast while raging anyway).

You can just get UMD skill for using the Wands (DC 20, always).

 

[Dandu]

How are you wearing a Preceipt + an amulet: you can to combine them (50% more cost) if you want both because they are the same slot.

Isn't a periapt a head slot?

You need Defenses (you can pick which):
Rings of Protection, potions of Barkskin (since amulet used), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 insight, slotless: cost less if you made it slotted), Gloves of Dex (if armor allows)

Any suggestion on what to sack for the AC?

Why Sorc 2 instead of Bard 2? You'd then have Inspire Courage when still functions in rage (can't cast while raging anyway).

Bard 2 is fairly weak. Possibly weaker than Sorc 2

You can just get UMD skill for using the Wands (DC 20, always).

Not really necessary as I don't plan on using non-arcane spells.