In a fantasy world filled with magic and miraculous beings, will the religious concepts of the locals be completely different from the human of Earth?

[Jfdlsjfd]

So when you said that "the net effect would be that people would participate in the rituals with even more enthusiasm." the people you were talking about is limited to only high level clerics and not other people?

The beneficiaries of such spells would. If the rather low level NPC Priest of your village can cast 7 Cure Wounds a day, a spell that can nurse your 1 HP-left child to full health instantly, you'll probably worship the god responsible for him curing even if you're not, right now, in need of cure. His god or church might not want to cure unworthy people after all. So while you'll happily go to the priest to have prayer said when your child is half-dying, you'll also accept to sacrifice a chicken to the god before (or after).

The existence of non clerical magic and non-deity magical beings I think would be a pretty big impact on how people thought about the importance of clerical magic and gods in a D&D world and how religion would be affected because of the two.

I don't think so. Most people would just call wizards priests of Mystra/Hecate/Isis. If you can cast spell because you're doing prescribed rituals allowed by Mystra, you'll have a hard time explaining and convincing people it's different than what the priest of Lathander, who is casting spell because he's doing rituals prescribed by Lathander, is doing. Especially when non clerical magic depends on Mystra being alive to tend to the Weave to work correctly.

 

[The Firebird]

but what about in a fantasy world filled with magic and supernatural beings? Would Faerun's peasants believe in the empty words of a stranger missionary, even if he couldn't even use a level 0 spell, and always used more empty worlds to dodge the questions when people asked him to perform even just a tiny miracles?

I think your analysis is based on a transactional view of how religion works. I'm not going to mention specifics but want to note that is not always the dynamic at play. Often a follower of a religion will believe despite no temporal benefit, or even temporal harm as a result. The idea that the lack of a cure wounds spell would cause them to change their beliefs doesn't seem well founded, imo.

 

[Faolyn]

this question is: in a fantasy world (such as Toril) filled with magic and miraculous beings, will the religious concepts of the locals be completely different from those of the human of Earth(which a magicless world)?

In such a world, everything is clear and knowable. You know that various magical powers, gods, and other similar beings exist. you know that after you die, your soul will go somewhere to enjoy eternal bliss or torment————and more importantly, you can (at least in theory) actually know and verify this, such as through the spell of Planeshift or Gate. although such spells are only available to a few of the most powerful people, they are indeed possible and exist.
In this world, miracles are cheap. If all you can do is walk on water, feed a large crowd with a few loaves of bread, or cure a few diseases, it's nothing. while not everywhere, every larger town usually has one or two people who can do it. more importantly, even if you can perform somg greater miracle, like make people resurrection from the dead, it doesn't mean much. raising the dead is a powerful spell, but there are countless powerful people who can cast it————how can you prove that you are superior to others?

In a fantasy world where magic and countless miraculous beings actually exist, people even the lowest peasants won't believe your empty words; they demand proof, tangible power. in other words, according to Earth's concepts, they are actually MATERIALISTS AND ATHEISTS————they know that God exists and worship them, but their concepts of such things is completely different from that of magicless Earthlings. simply put,unlike our Earth,in the fantasy world,if a missionary attempts to spread faith with empty words without demonstrating any real miracles, no one will care them.

Well, first, they wouldn't be materialist atheists--they'd be gnostic theists; they both believe in the gods and know they exist.

I would assume that the difference between mortal and god is scale. A human can (with a big enough diamond and a long enough ritual) raise the dead. A god should be able to raise multiple dead without any material components and at a moment's notice.

(Should be, of course, is the key--D&D loves to stat up their gods, or at least their gods' avatars, and thus limit them to what the spells can do. And, of course, real-world gods often didn't have that level of power anyway, or they relied on magic items to do the cool stuff.)

The thing is, the average person isn't likely to see all that much magic--enough to know it exists, enough to see it be used for impressive things, but not enough to actually know how it works or its limitations. How many 5,000 gp diamonds exist?* How many clerics are high enough in level to cast it? Heck, how many clerics are high enough level to cast it and have big enough diamonds laying around? Even if an entire village or town chipped in, it's unlikely they could afford to get anyone raised, even if the local cleric wasn't charging for the casting. They're not going to see a raise dead in action. They're probably never even going to see a revivify. At most, they might see a spare the dying, if they're lucky enough to have both the dying person and the cleric in the same room together.

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* Can you just go grab any old diamond, pay 5k for it, and it's good enough? They should have specified carats, like GURPS does for its mana stones.
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At best bet, the average person is going to see injuries and illnesses get magically treated, receive some relatively minor blessings, and maybe some heavenly (but bland-tasting) manna made during starvation situations. They're not going to see people walking on water simply because that's not something that is going to be needed in their lives, meaning there's no reason for the clerics to cast it. Ditto for arcane casters. Unless they live in a monster-infested place (which is possible), the wizard is going to be doing mostly minor tricks for entertainment and utility spells.

So if you have some larger-than-life figure come in and do amazing things, there's really no reason why people might not accept them as a god.

(Unless, of course, this is a setting where the actual gods get ticked off at mortals who do this and either intervene with their clerics and paladins or go straight to the smiting or cursing.)

Sure, there could be a demand for proof. But it wouldn't necessarily take big miracles. The Greek gods didn't bleed blood, they bled ethereal but highly toxic ichor. There's no reason why a fantasy god couldn't have something similar. You claim you're a god? Here's a knife, go shed a few drops. We'll even sacrifice a chicken you can bleed onto. If it dies a horrible and clearly supernatural death, you're a god. That won't stop really dedicated fakers, but it will stop most of them.

 

[Baron Opal II]

There are also holy days and high holy days, when stories are told and miracles performed for the masses. You could even have a team-up*, where the allied temples of Lathander and Chauntea have a joint ceremony celebrating the Equinox and having pets and farm animals blessed.

* Semi-random example, not quoting FR source material.

 

[aramis erak]

The short answer is yes but there are some caveats.

Most people can't travel to other planes. Is it really true that clerics lose their powers for failing their god? Maybe clerics just have a different approach to summoning their magic and they ascribe it to their god but in fact it's just another magic system. Do the gods care or do they just give their clerics whatever they want? So many questions that depending on the answer will drive the campaign world.

If the people see a cleric that seems to be operating against his god's dictates, what are they to think if he is still casting spells? You can definitely create a world where gods exist and people still have doubts. Though I'd argue the debate is between those who just think the "gods" are super powerful beings from other dimensions and those who think they are divine. In one campaign world I ran the elves disputed the divinity of the gods.

Canonically, under AD&D2, your god doesn't grant you your level 1 & 2 spells... Until 3rd level spells you deity only vaguely knows you.

In the middle ages of this earth, almost every last person believed in the supernatural. We don't really move off that view until the renaissance. So our own middle ages is very similar to a fantasy world when it comes to belief in the supernatural.

Excellent, but possibly erroneous, point; There isn't enough proof either way.

 

[Maxperson]

Canonically, under AD&D2, your god doesn't grant you your level 1 & 2 spells... Until 3rd level spells you deity only vaguely knows you.

Your faith gives you spell levels 1 and 2, but that doesn't equate to the deity only vaguely knowing the cleric. He's still a god who is going to be intimately aware of his clerics.

2e Greater gods: "Sensing Ability: These beings are truly omniscient. That is, they know what is happening everywhere at all times. In many cases, they can accurately predict the precise actions of mortals and other gods based on their vast knowledge."

2e Intermediate gods: "Sensing Ability: Intermediate gods always know what is happening within 100 miles of their current position. In addition, they can extend their senses and learn what is happening within 100 miles of any worshiper of any god in their pantheon, or any holy object of any god in their pantheon."

2e Lesser gods: "Lesser gods always know what is happening within 10 miles of themselves. Like intermediate gods, they can extend their senses to include knowledge of all that is transpiring within 10 miles of any of their worshipers or any of their holy objects."

2e Demigods: "Demigods have the ability to know what is happening within one mile of themselves or any of their own worshipers."

Even the demigods are going to know their low level clerics very well.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

In the middle ages of this earth, almost every last person believed in the supernatural. We don't really move off that view until the renaissance.

I'd actually go further - at least in Europe. Even in the Renaissance, the idea of a supernatural reality prevailed overwhelmingly. We didn't get whispers of Deism until the 1560s (Pierre Viret). Bruno and Spinoza (although accused of atheism) were pantheists. Deism began to gain traction as a current in the late 17th century.

Atheism was starting to make its first tentative moves around the same time (Bayle, 1680s), but it wasn't until the 19th c. that atheism really asserted itself with Feuerbach, Marx and Nietzsche. Until then, Deism was much more widespread.

That's only among philosophers and intellectuals, of course - who might dare to think differently. The vast majority of people are ... another matter.

 

[aramis erak]

I'd actually go further - at least in Europe. Even in the Renaissance, the idea of a supernatural reality prevailed overwhelmingly. We didn't get whispers of Deism until the 1560s (Pierre Viret). Bruno and Spinoza (although accused of atheism) were pantheists. Deism began to gain traction as a current in the late 17th century.

Atheism was starting to make its first tentative moves around the same time (Bayle, 1680s), but it wasn't until the 19th c. that atheism really asserted itself with Feruerbach, Marx and Nietzsche. Until then, Deism was much more widespread.

That's only among philosophers and intellectuals, of course - who might dare to think differently. The vast majority of people are ... another matter.

Judging by parish rosters and attendance, the common folk have been more religious since the 17th C than the leadership. It is only in the 19th C that we see significant non-participation in faith activities by the common folk. Including secular authorities imposing restrictions such as religious parades on holy days (having been a member of a parish which walked through 3" fresh snow for the Easter procession)... they can be quite disruptive to some people.

 

[pemerton]

Atheism was starting to make its first tentative moves around the same time (Bayle, 1680s), but it wasn't until the 19th c. that atheism really asserted itself with Feruerbach, Marx and Nietzsche.

Feuerbach might say that he's not, strictly speaking, an atheist - he's just establishing a true consciousness about the content and significance of statements about god (ie on his account, they're really statements about human nature and capacity).

I've not read serious biographies, but I assume that Bentham and Mill were atheists. Presumably also the Wollstonecrafts. And Hume, of course (I mean perhaps in a technical sense he's an agnostic, but in every day terms . . . )

 

[Cergorach]

In such a world, everything is clear and knowable. You know that various magical powers, gods, and other similar beings exist.

No it isn't. Even in our real world we have people who believe the world is flat and most regular people wouldn't understand string theory. We also believe and have faith in technology and science (our religion?). In theory we could learn the science and technology ourselves, but in reality most people do not have the capability, the means, nor the interest. They believe what others say.

In a high fantasy world, most of the regular people haven't seen the gods walk the earth. They are not clerics of a god. They see the magic the clerics weave, but so do the wizards and bards in ways they don't understand. And the level of education of the average person in that fantasy world is also not very high. Thus they also rely on faith and what more powerful people say is the 'truth'.

Just like they did in the middle/dark ages in our world. The church and powerful people said that god existed, so people 'believed' and had faith, or at least paid lip service to god(s). Either due to social pressure, fear of retribution, legal requirement, a 'better save then sorry' policy, or actual true faith in god(s).

How the gods were done in FR, 2e probably did them the most extensively, was interesting, but showed them more from the gods perspective. Less so from the perspective from their churches. Imho Green Ronin did the best pantheon in 'The Book of the Righteous', where you got a coherent panteon from the perspective of the churches.