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In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics

Dunnagin

First Post
Here's where the real problem with 4E/3E should crop up. The thing is, Fighter's aren't really the best at fighting, a polymorphed Wizard is, or a group of summoned monsters. A buffed Cleric, or a Druid's pet is. I want to play a game of (new) D&D as you describe, preferably as a skill-based system where 'Fighting' exists as just another skill you can get or not get, but I don't think 3E+ really models it well. Everything still attempts to be good at combat in 3E, but some classes aren't that good at it, i.e. lack of balance. I guess you can pick spells that are useless in combat as a Wizard/Cleric/Druid, but it's hard, you have to kind of gimp yourself on purpose, since a lot of the best spells are really awesome both in and out of combat. As I was saying, I would like to play the D&D with the Wizard as the wise sage, rather than the wise sage that is also Batman from around level 3 and on.

Yeah, I agree with you here for sure.
I think there are various ways you could make this work, because I'm sure every player and dm's worst fear is having a player feel left out... which is fair.

It'd still be cool to see a game address this.
Maybe more diverse non combat rules?
Maybe some more direct "mage duel" mechanics?
Maybe some more ingrained "arcane check" rules?

There must be some way to balance it out huh?
 

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Imaro

Legend
yes, there is. Page 45 pf the PHB gives the in-game reason. he just doesn't accept it, just as other people don't accept the in-game reason given for hit points.

Uhm, I'm looking at page 45 in the 4e PHB... and it's the section on halflings, am I missing something?

EDIT: I'm going to assume you mean page 54. But there is no real explanation here for why encounter powers are only once every encounter... In fact they are maneuvers you have extensively trained to pull off... but you can only pull them off once in awhile... That's not an in-game reason it's just stating you can only pull them off once in awhile, because you can only pull them off once in awhile.
 
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Imaro

Legend
Exactly, and if you don't like the explanation for martial dailies, they are disassociated to you. If someone else thinks Vancian magic is nonsensical, then the daily use of a fireball is disassociated to them.

Wrong, given the explanation on page 54 I would say MD's aren't a disassociative mechanic, regardless of whether I like or don't like the justification, they are justified in-game... however encounter powers, monsters with recharges, many monster powers in general, and so on have no in-game explanation for why they work the way they do. What exactly is happening when a monster rolls to recharge a power... I don't know because it's never stated in the power itself.

See it's not about whether I think a mechcanic is nonsensical or not it's about whether this mechanic has an in-game explanation or not... or whether I have to pull that out of the ether after I use it.

The problem isn't that the mechanics are abstract, but that any given abstraction is unacceptable to that individual. That's why TheAlexandrian's argument is ultimately circular. He can accept some mechanics and rejects others, labeling them "disassociated".

Nope there are mechchanics in 4e that have no in-game ties whatsoever, even abstract ones. They are left as pure mechcnics and the association of them to anything in the world is left up in the air.


Of course not, because you agree with his conclusion.

No, because there are examples in 4e of mechanics that have no in-game/fictional/fluff representation. They are pure mechanics. Check out this thread for a pretty good example from a 4e fan of what I mean...

[4E] Monster Stat Blocks: filling in the fluff plus what is a Grazroblain

I think they are the same thing. I use the terms interchangeably.

Of course you do... because you want them to be.


Since I think they're the same thing I disagree.

That's a pretty circular argument there.

I think the question is meaningless. "Dislike" is an emotional word. Aesthetics are neither "valid" not "invalid". You don't like 4e. got it. There's not going to be a valid or invalid reason for it. It's just going to be a preference.

Really because there are plenty of 4e fans who will divide up reasons for liking and disliking 4e into valid and non-valid categories.


That's a circular argument. Of course 4e's disassociated mechanics are a 4e thing. And since you've defined "disassociated" as mechanics you think haven't been justified in-game, it's also a circular argument. i don't think 4e's mechanics are unjustified, so i reject your premise that 4e has more disassociated mechanics (under your definition) than prior games.

It's not circular and I can list mechanics that have no justification in-game (no explanation, no fluff, nothing to infer from). Again monster powers are great for this, encounter powers per the PHB explanation again have no in-game reason for why you can only use them once in an encounter (you just can't). You seem to be willfully ignoring any facts presented. Now to me that seems emotionally driven as opposed to objective examination.
 

Bluenose

Adventurer
On the other hand, too much simulation is also a bad thing. It bogs the game down into a lavishly detailed and unplayable mess of numbers... that really isn't ever a very good simulation anyway.

Why? Simulation can be done without making rules into "a lavishly detailed and unplayable mess of numbers". Any process that gives appropriate results based on the source material is a good simulation. It doesn't matter how complex or simple the rules are as long as that is remembered.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Uhm, I'm looking at page 45 in the 4e PHB... and it's the section on halflings, am I missing something?

EDIT: I'm going to assume you mean page 54. But there is no real explanation here for why encounter powers are only once every encounter... In fact they are maneuvers you have extensively trained to pull off... but you can only pull them off once in awhile... That's not an in-game reason it's just stating you can only pull them off once in awhile, because you can only pull them off once in awhile.
Page 54 has an explanation for daily powers -
using one takes a significant toll on your physical and mental resources. If you're a martial character, you're reaching into your deepest reserves of energy to pull off an amazing exploit.​
The power that TA critiques for having no ingame explanation for its limited number of uses is a daily, the rogue exploit, Trick Strike. It doesn't take a great stretch to apply the same rationale to encounter powers, save that they require fewer physical and mental resources, though admittedly there isn't such a justification in the encounter powers section.
 

Imaro

Legend
Page 54 has an explanation for daily powers -
using one takes a significant toll on your physical and mental resources. If you're a martial character, you're reaching into your deepest reserves of energy to pull off an amazing exploit.
The power that TA critiques for having no ingame explanation for its limited number of uses is a daily, the rogue exploit, Trick Strike. It doesn't take a great stretch to apply the same rationale to encounter powers, save that they require fewer physical and mental resources, though admittedly there isn't such a justification in the encounter powers section.

This is why in an earlier post I said I wanted to focus on the idea being presented not the essay itself. I conceded in my above post that Martial Daily powers have an in-game reason but I do not believe his choosing of a bad example invalidates the idea. In the post above I also noted the nunerous other places in 4e where there is no in-game reason given for the mechanics such as many monster powers, how or why recharges occur, encounter powers, etc.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Page 54 has an explanation for daily powers -
using one takes a significant toll on your physical and mental resources. If you're a martial character, you're reaching into your deepest reserves of energy to pull off an amazing exploit.​
The power that TA critiques for having no ingame explanation for its limited number of uses is a daily, the rogue exploit, Trick Strike. It doesn't take a great stretch to apply the same rationale to encounter powers, save that they require fewer physical and mental resources, though admittedly there isn't such a justification in the encounter powers section.

That's not really a satisfying explanation from an in-game perspective.

Joe the Hero: Wow, Ziggy, that was amazing! Can you do it again?
Ziggy the Rogue: Uh, no.
Joe the Hero: Why not?
Ziggy the Rogue: I've, uh... exhausted my physical and mental resources.
Joe the Hero: You mean you're tired?
Ziggy the Rogue: Not, uh, not exactly. I'm just too... exhausted... to do THAT.
Joe the Hero: You mean you've exhausted your ki?
Ziggy the Rogue: Can we change the subject?
Joe the Hero: You got it. Okay, get ready. I'm about to set up an awesome move. Get ready! We're only going to get one shot at this.
Ziggy the Rogue: Got it.
Joe the Hero: I mean that literally. If we don't pull this off, we cannot try again until tomorrow.
 

Imaro

Legend
That's not really a satisfying explanation from an in-game perspective.

Joe the Hero: Wow, Ziggy, that was amazing! Can you do it again?
Ziggy the Rogue: Uh, no.
Joe the Hero: Why not?
Ziggy the Rogue: I've, uh... exhausted my physical and mental resources.
Joe the Hero: You mean you're tired?
Ziggy the Rogue: Not, uh, not exactly. I'm just too... exhausted... to do THAT.
Joe the Hero: You mean you've exhausted your ki?
Ziggy the Rogue: Can we change the subject?
Joe the Hero: You got it. Okay, get ready. I'm about to set up an awesome move. Get ready! We're only going to get one shot at this.
Ziggy the Rogue: Got it.
Joe the Hero: I mean that literally. If we don't pull this off, we cannot try again until tomorrow.

Good point... not to mention that at certain levels you can be too exhausted to use one particular daily... but have no problem doing a different (but arguably just as strenuous) daily power.
 

delericho

Legend
Why? Simulation can be done without making rules into "a lavishly detailed and unplayable mess of numbers".

I'm not sure how far you can take simulation before it becomes unwieldy. How accurately should you calculate bow ranges indoors, for example? How exacting should the grapple rules be?

I think simulation is a fine thing... to a point. But I think also that it probably reaches a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
The rest are examples of abstracted mechanics, in which a range of various factors and circumstances are rolled up into a simplified numerical value for the sake of convenience. HP and Saving Throws each represent a character's ability to avoid serious harm or death through a combination of skill, experience, natural ability, luck, fate, divine favor, magical assistance, etc. XP for gold made the assumption that adventurers who amassed large amount of wealth had faced and overcome many difficult challenges to do so. Armor and weapon restrictions assumed some combination of cultural and practical factors.

All of the above mechanics still have a direct association with specific behaviors and outcomes in the game world. Take HP for example. It is directly affected by a character's experience level, class, and ability scores, all of which are things an avatar would have some awareness of. It also degrades as a character absorbs blows, gets tired, or presses their luck repeatedly - again all things the character could feel and understand. So when a player uses HP to make informed decisions about when to flee or continue fighting, or whether or not to jump off a 20' cliff, we can easily envision the character making the same decision based on the same set of information.
You're quite right that saving throws and hit points are abstracted. The same mechanic can refer to a number of quite different properties of the game world. But isn't this very rules feature what TA is complaining about when he talks about the war devil's besieged foe ability? He bemoans the multiple possible explanations, saying that to provide a specific explanation is to make a house rule. Isn't there the exact same need, if there is such a need, to 'pin down' the abstract mechanics of saving throws and hit points as there is to explain besieged foe? I don't agree with what TA says here, but it applies equally, imo, to saves and hit points -

So now we've established that any attempt to provide an explanation for this mechanic constitutes a house rule: Whatever explanation you come up with will have a meaningful impact on how the ability is used in the game. Why is this a problem?

First, there's a matter of principle. Once we've accepted that you need to immediately house rule the war devil in order to use the war devil, we've accepted that the game designers gave us busted rules that need to be fixed before they can be used. The Rule 0 Fallacy ("this rule isn't broken because I can fix it") is a poor defense for any game.

...

These massive house rules also create a disjunction in the game. One of the things that was identified as problematic in the waning days of AD&D was that the vast majority of people playing the game had heavily house ruled the game in various ways. That meant that when you switched from one AD&D group to a different AD&D group, you could often end up playing what was essentially a completely different game.

In the case of AD&D, this widespread house ruling was the result of disaffection with a fundamentally weak and inconsistent game system. House ruling, of course, didn't disappear with the release of 3rd Edition -- but the amount of house ruling, in general, was significantly decreased and the consistency of experience from one game table to the next was improved.​


Ofc, TA is wrong about besieged foe, the rules do in fact provide a game world explanation. I would assume that when he wrote the article, the author only had access to the power description and not the accompanying text on pg 67 of the MM -

They use besieged foe... to direct their subordinates against dangerous foes​

TA imagines conducting an interrogation of a character, asking him to explain why he can only use Trick Strike once a day. Surely a similar interrogation could be conducted regarding hit points. We could ask how a character on one hit point who fled, or sought rest or healing, knew he was badly wounded or severely fatigued, given that none of his capabilities were impaired in any way. His movement, his skill use, his ability to strike, to deal damage, to avoid blows, all of these were functioning at full capacity. And yet such a technique of interrogation, uncovering inconsistencies, insufficient explanations, is deemed capable of uncovering dissociated mechanics.

We might equally ask why a character jumped off a great height with such abandon. He seemed certain he could survive. How so?

Regarding xp for gold, Gary Gygax is perfectly honest about it having no game world justification, ie being a dissociated mechanic -

Players who balk at equating gold pieces to experience points should be gently but firmly reminded that in a game certain compromises must be made. While it is more "realistic" for clerics to study holy writings, pray, chant, practice self-discipline, etc. to gain experience, it would not make a playable game roll along. Similarly, fighters should be exercising, riding, smiting pelts, tilting at the lists, and engaging in weapons practice of various sorts to gain real expertise (experience); magic-users should be deciphering old scrolls, searching ancient tomes, experimenting alchemically, and so forth; while thieves should spend their off-hours honing their skills, "casing" various buildings, watching potential victims, and carefully planning their next "iob". All very realistic but conducive to non-game boredom!​
- DMG pg 85

Your explanation, that in gaining gold, PCs will be very likely to use all their character abilities, is a perfectly good one. It's just that it's not the justification given in the text. So we have a situation where the users of the game text are having to create their own explanations, which is precisely what TA dislikes about besieged foe.

Pre-3e editions of D&D are, imo, full of what TA would call dissociated mechanics. OD&D, as far as I'm aware, doesn't provide many justifications for its rules. 1e does provide some, even then they are often honest about the real reason being gamism or playability, for example the explanation for the lack of a critical hit system on page 61 of the DMG. Vancian magic itself was chosen with game balance in mind, as described in the article 'The D&D Magic System' in the Strategic Review #7. Likewise the use of weapons and armour -

Why can’t magic-users employ swords? And for that matter, why not allow fighters to use wands and similar magical devices? On the surface this seems a small concession, but in actuality it would spoil the game! Each character role has been designed with care in order to provide varied and unique approaches to solving the problems which confront the players. If characters are not kept distinct, they will soon merge into one super-character. Not only would this destroy the variety of the game, but it would also kill the game, for the super-character would soon have nothing left to challenge him or her, and the players would grow bored and move on to something which was fun.​
- Gary Gygax, “Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic”, Dragon #16

Even Gary's simulationist justifications in 1e were added after the fact. It was mechanic first, explanation second -

When questioned about the whys and wherefores of D&D I sometimes rationalize the matter and give “realistic” and “logical” reasons. The truth of the matter is that D&D was written principally as a game — perhaps I used game realism and game logic consciously or unconsciously when I did so, but that is begging the question. Enjoyment is the real reason for D&D being created, written, and published.​
- Gary Gygax, “Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic”, Dragon #16

Contrast this with 4e daily powers, which dissociate the mechanic (i.e. how often you can use the power) from any meaningful factors or circumstances a character would conceivably be aware of or able to influence in the game world (such as skill level, experience, fatigue, luck, or prior preparation). The mechanic allows the player to make informed decisions about when to use it, but provides no explanation of how the character would arrive at the same conclusion.
As has been said upthread, there is a game world explanation for martial daily powers on page 54 of the PHB, which talks about using up “physical and mental resources”. The character could certainly be aware of such.
 
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