In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics

People who are concerned about 'disassociation' and immersion can possibly choose to:

This is only for certain values of "immersion". Immersion to me means that I can picture the game's fiction in my mind's eye. Dissociated mechanics don't play a part in that.

I think that's why I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of dissociated mechanics. I think there's some fundamental element other people are getting out of the game that I've never cared much for. I've probably always played the game at a more "metagame" level.
 

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This is only for certain values of "immersion". Immersion to me means that I can picture the game's fiction in my mind's eye. Dissociated mechanics don't play a part in that.

I think that's why I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of dissociated mechanics. I think there's some fundamental element other people are getting out of the game that I've never cared much for. I've probably always played the game at a more "metagame" level.

This is why I've gradually adopted the view that there is a difference between shallow and deep immersion. "Picture the game's fiction in my mind's eye," is an excellent pegging of the heart of shallow immersion.

Deep immersion is something that I can only glimpse. It is rather ironic to me that for a long time, deep immersion is something that people got really incensed about, because people on message boards kept telling the deep immersionists that they didn't. And that what they thought there were doing wasn't so much roleplaying as an expression of mental problems. The world turns, but there is nothing new under the sun. :p
 

This is why I've gradually adopted the view that there is a difference between shallow and deep immersion. "Picture the game's fiction in my mind's eye," is an excellent pegging of the heart of shallow immersion.
Maybe I'm even misusing the term "immersion" then. I never thought of myself as a "deep immersionist". And I can picture anything in my mind's eye. I can picture the Trick Strike feints, and I can picture characters falling off 200" cliffs and getting up, and I can even picture fighters throwing purple teddy bears at their opponents and hurtling them back. Does "immersion" mean picturing in mind's eye and thinking it seems plausible?

Edit: I didn't meant to lump Trick Strike feints with jumping off 200' cliffs or purple teddy bears... sigh, one sure does have to watch out for these things.
 
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This is only for certain values of "immersion". Immersion to me means that I can picture the game's fiction in my mind's eye. Dissociated mechanics don't play a part in that.

I think that's why I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of dissociated mechanics.
Same here. My sense of immersion into my character, and into the game's fiction, isn't closely tied to the specifics of the task resolution mechanics.

Whether a warrior PC of mine makes series of abstractly-handled strikes over the course of a minute (using AD&D), one mighty blow in six seconds which sacrifices accuracy for injury potential (using 3e), or some showy maneuver they can only pull off daily called Momma Said Knock You Out! (obviously 4e, unless it's Tunnels and Trolls...) has no bearing on my ability to observe, understand, interact with, and immerse myself into the in-game fictional world.

They're just different levers a player, through their character, can affect the game environment with.

I've probably always played the game at a more "metagame" level.
My experience is people shift between in-game and metagame perspectives from minute to minute during play.
 

I may be missing a key point here, but what if the fencer (above) was facing an opponent with full plate and shield and a reach weapon that is longer then the fencing blade. In reality, is it equally easy for that fencer to make that opponent move? If not, and if D&D is full of opponents in full plate and shield and reach weapons, then would the fencer find any 4E combat-related mechanics to now be disassociated (compared to your analogy in which all other opponents are also fencers like him/her).

That depends if they are dealing with a real world reality or a cinematic reality. I have stated quite openly that 4e runs on Holywood Physics - and in a world using Holywood Physics, that isn't so much of a problem. Rule of Cool. On the other hand, in a world that uses the physics of the real world the problem isn't the rapier wielder moving the person in plate with a shield (although that's a pretty redundant combination). Moving them is about the one thing they can do. The problem is that even if the rapier can push, short of going through the eyeholes in the armour it can't do any actual damage. Under Holywood Physics it can - but under real world physics it turns off the armour. It's eyeslits or nothing.

So either you can accept Holywood Physics, or you can have the rapier only hit on a natural 20 - and that's pretty much an instant kill most of the time. 4e works although it isn't in the real world. Given that in 3e rapier hits on plate don't often confirm (due to the critical confirmation roll), clearly they aren't going in through the eyeslit, 3e fails at having anything like realism here. If 3e is intended to be a mythic reality or under holywood physics, then that works. But it doesn't embrace it in the way 4e does.

GURPS and Rolemaster get this one right-ish for gritty games. In GURPS, Plate Armour has IIRC DR 6. And being a thrusting weapon, a finely made rapier does about 1d6+1 damage in the hands of an above averagely strong wielder. For 1d6+1-6 damage unless you went through the eyeslits at -10 to hit on 3d6. Rolemaster uses a separate table for rapier vs plate - and you don't damage much unless you are really good.

If yes, then doesn't go to prove that the fictional context is important?

Fictional context is important. As is fictional flavour. 4e is pretty clear on its fictional flavour - it's Holywood Physics or the physics of the Illiad, the Oddessy, and of Norse and Celtic Myth. This isn't the physics of the real world (there are some real howlers in Virgil for anyone who knows what they are talking about). It's also the physics of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser where people can go rocket propelled ski-ing. Or ride the shockwave from an explosion without ending up as a pile of jelly.

I have no problem with this physics model being criticised by fans of the gritter Rolemaster or GURPS. They are based on a more realistic physics model, and that is a perfectly valid choice. And if I wanted one I'd play those games. Where I do have a problem is if 3E fans start criticising 4e on those grounds. 4E has a consistent physics model (well, as consistent as large action movies get). In 3e a heavy pick does only fractionally more damage to plate armour than a rapier - and that only when you need more than a natural 18 to hit. That a weapon designed to be the first thing to poke holes into unarmoured targets does the same average damage against plate armour as a weapon designed specifically to penetrate plate armour is absurd. In 3e a rapier and a heavy pick hit with the same timing. This is equally absurd. One is what the heavy pick is designed for, one is what the rapier is designed for. But the two are more or less indistinguishable at both. Under Holywood Physics, that's fine. Both are going to be useful and it's a character choice which you wield. But under any sort of realistic game, this is risible.

You are in a glass house and throwing stones.

As I have said, if you take every event in 4E and look at in in isolation, you can always come up with a perfectly valid explanation. But if you look at the patterns that surface due to the mechanics, then the validity falls away. And because we are playing a game and know the mechanics are there, that pattern surfaces on the very first use.

Once more I have to say you are in a glass house and trying to throw stones. The patterns are IME not as bad as you claim. But the first thing any game must get right is character psychology. And here 3e fails and fails badly. Man is an economic animal. Humans in a world where (a) high level wizards exist and (b) high level wizards haven't completely upended the economy to me just do not make sense. Unless there are detentes enforced by the game world they just aren't behaving like humans. (Eberron manages this to be fair by (a) removing high level wizards and (b) having magic users forming cartels). Even if 4e physics breaks slightly, the people are all recognisable as people. If mid-high level arcanists are common in 3e, they are not recognisable. This to me is a far more serious problem.

And for the record, hit points are obvious on the very first playthrough in 3e. And those are as disassociated as anything in 4e. 4e embraces them with healing surges and says "You are John McLane or Indiana Jones and you can take a ridiculous pounding and come back." Which means they cease to be disassociated and become a part of the underlying game world. In older editions they are swept under the rug and make ungainly lumps in the carpet that you need to be careful to walk round until you are used to.

Oh, and I disagree with you about the patterns. The patterns are consistent - and one of Holywood Physics. If that's a deal breaker, fine. But it's consistent and valid.

Adjusting the plot to meet the mechanics is as fundamental to 4E as putting shapes in squares is to tic tac toe.

Oh, possibly. 4e is a high action game. It does what it does superbly. But doesn't do other things very well. But for a counter-argument, I'm once more going to point out that you need to adjust your gameworld to fit the 3e magic system.
 

Does "immersion" mean picturing in mind's eye and thinking it seems plausible?

We need a deep immersionist, capable of explaining what happens in actual play at their table, to answer that fully. But I'll answer what I can from my limited understanding ...

Same here. My sense of immersion into my character, and into the game's fiction, isn't closely tied to the specifics of the task resolution mechanics...

My experience is people shift between in-game and metagame perspectives from minute to minute during play.

This also mirrors my experience. Except, with us, the switch is often measured in seconds, sometimes turning into a flicker. When I'm GMing, I'm often speaking in character with an NPC, while in the back of my mind I'm metagaming. Part of this, is that if you stay immersed, you can't take advantage of the metagame perspective. So that rather begs the question of whether we stay shallow to metagame, or metagame and it keeps us shallow? With our group, I think it is a self-reinforcing cycle.

Note, that I also think it is possible for people to simply reject the metagaming layer, play primarily or entirely shallow immersed, and have a lot of fun with it. This might even be the default style for much of D&D play. I'm not sure if a person can easily deep immerse with lots of mechanics/spells/items/stuff to fiddle around with, and D&D has typically been that game.

Near as I can tell, deep immersion will be partly characterized by things like nearly always talking in character, from a first person perspective; thinking about the character as an entity in a living world, and doing what the character would do; and ultimately trying to get into a state where all reactions in character bubble up out of some unconcious, method-actor, style of thinking. I'm even less clear how the game master runs this kind of thing, as I can't possibly imagine deep immersing in each NPC in turn.

Not those things are entirely off limits to shallow immersion, but this is hardly some acid test, anyway. :lol:
 

I have stated quite openly that 4e runs on Holywood Physics - and in a world using Holywood Physics, that isn't so much of a problem. Rule of Cool. On the other hand, in a world that uses the physics of the real world the problem isn't the rapier wielder moving the person in plate with a shield (although that's a pretty redundant combination).
Whoa there. I really tried to be careful with my wording. If you followed that sub-thread, you'd notice that I wrote:
Sure, but let's be careful, from recent experience, to discuss an example on its own terms. There aren't many fencers in D&D relative to average gameplay...
I never cared about the fencing example in terms of applying reality to gritty D&D. I was only following the logic of James' analogy.

So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you used my quote not to address me directly but to talk to some hypothetical bogeyman.
You are in a glass house and throwing stones.
--Oh no, I was wrong. You did get it all wrong.
 

Whoa there. I really tried to be careful with my wording. If you followed that sub-thread, you'd notice that I wrote:

I never cared about the fencing example in terms of applying reality to gritty D&D. I was only following the logic of James' analogy.

So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you used my quote not to address me directly but to talk to some hypothetical bogeyman.
--Oh no, I was wrong. You did get it all wrong.

I am confused. Could you outline clearly what you believe and find to be true, rather than speaking in second-hand and complexified metaphors that start with other people. From my perspective you appear to be trying to add some fairly classic digs at 4e to the thread, disguised behind using other peoples' metaphors. If not, I do not understand where you are coming from.

And for the record the overlap between D&D players, SCA+Reenactors+LARPers+fencers, and historical nerds is pretty high in my experience.
 

I am confused. Could you outline clearly what you believe and find to be true, rather than speaking in second-hand and complexified metaphors that start with other people. From my perspective you appear to be trying to add some fairly classic digs at 4e to the thread, disguised behind using other peoples' metaphors. If not, I do not understand where you are coming from.
If I understood correctly, James used the fencing example to illustrate the expectations that a person brings to the table, and I only rolled with his example because I was trying to understand his conclusions. Perhaps you should ask him, not me, because I didn't bring up the fencing scenario. I don't know what you mean by disguising attacks on 4E by using other people's metaphors.
 
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Yep :)

How can I learn to make critical hits? What skill am I using to score a critical? At what point can my character choose to make a critical hit?

Or are critical hits entirely guided by the dice mechanic and actually have zero linkage to the in game fiction?

A critical hit is a hit that is extra good, basically, right? The in-game reasoning can definitely be learned, explored, or observed; the creature has a weak spot that you attacked. You do not have to be able to learn, explore, or observe how to do something in order for it to be associated. You must be able to learn, explore, or observe the reasoning of a mechanic in-game.

To that end, critical hits are definitely associated, as far as I can tell. And definitely abstract.

A critical hit in D&D only occurs when the dice say they do. They could happen at any time regardless of the actions of the character.

I would argue that criticals are most certainly disassociated by your definition. They can neither be learned, nor taught, nor can they be initiated by the character at any point in time.

Hopefully, now you actually know my definition.

As always, play what you like :)

But it can't be tested in that way. A campaign as, at most, 300 encounters. Those encounters are not in the player's control. Many of those encounters won't involve combat. Many of those encounters won't involve situations where the rogue's player would want to use any given encounter power. That rogue may have other ways to slide people, using terrain powers, improvised actions, and other powers in the players arsenal.

The game understands that play is sufficiently limited and not susceptible to controlled testing conditions to have to deal with this. A character is simply highly unlikely to have sufficient numbers of encounters that are so similar that the limited resource mechanic would become apparent.

We only discuss it because we can peer behind the curtain and see the game rules. But the character in-game should not have occasion to suspect such a thing exists.

Even if that's the case, as I mentioned, "rigorous testing need not be applied, just knowing that a mechanic works in such a way can be dissociating in an of itself to certain players."

I think that's only because you are not considering the context of the game and the duration of a given campaign.

Trust me, that's probably not the case ;)

No doubt. But that's true of every abstract mechanic, not just the disassociated ones. It's just that the people alienated by abstract mechanics have already been alienated form the hobby. So we've got the anthropic principle at work here too.

Those of us still playing weren't sufficiently alienated by initiative, hit points, falling damage to stop playing. But every rule change has the potential to alienate someone still playing and those people will search for patterns, because humans have an intrinsic need to find patterns.

But the pattern isn't there. It's just people have an aesthetic disprefrence for a given change. It's taste and emotion, and there's nothing wrong with it, but there's nothing objective about it either.

It is taste. The fact that the pattern is obviously present (even if the characters will probably never experience it in-game) can be very dissociating to some people.

Again, I'd posit that abstraction and dissociation or metagame mechanics are all different things, but metagame mechanics and dissociated mechanics are much more similar to one another than to associated abstract mechanics. I know you use abstract and dissociated interchangeably (or, at least, I thought you posted that in this thread), but I really, strongly disagree.

As always, play what you like :)
 

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