In search for good epic house rules

[Dark Dragon]

I'm DMing a party that will be epic within some sessions (each PC is half-way betwenn level 19 and 20). I have the Epic Level Handbook, but some of the rules are poorly developed (to say it in a nice way).
Especially the development of epic spells and epic items is no fun at all.
Some skill checks and epic feats are either non-epic or still overpowered in some way.

So I'm looking for some house rules that put some sense into epic level play.

Thanks for help,

the Dark Dragon

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well, the Immortals Handbook thread (on this forum) might be a good place to look around and ask questions.

I'm DMing a party that will be epic within some sessions (each PC is half-way betwenn level 19 and 20). I have the Epic Level Handbook, but some of the rules are poorly developed (to say it in a nice way).
Especially the development of epic spells and epic items is no fun at all.
Some skill checks and epic feats are either non-epic or still overpowered in some way.

Could you be a bit more specific? I run an epic campaign, and might be able to help you, but I'd need to know about exactly what you have problems with: clearly you don't like the items, and I presume you want a different epic spell system? What problems did you have with the epic skills and epic feats? What's your party's composition?

 

[Dark Dragon]

The party consists of:

human pal 15/clr 4 (Helm)
half-elf ftr 4/clr 11/dis 4 (Kelemvor)
elf wiz 15/mao 4
high ogre wiz 14/acm 5
centaur drd 18/dis 1 (Mielikki)

The group is mostly "working" in Faerûn, having powerful enemies (Balagos, the Twisted Rune, the surving members of House Aldhanek in Tethyr) as well as powerful allies (a mature adult silver dragon sorceress, the elves from the Elmanesse tribe and members of the churches of Helm, Kelemvor and Mielikki).

Most of all, I don't like the development of epic spells. It's too expensive and the spellcraft checks for an epic spell (that deserves the description "epic", for example, there are some so called "epic" spells in the PGtF that are plain weak) become quickly insane.

I can live with the number of epic spells cast per day (depends on Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, Nature), IIRC).

The power of epic items should not exceed the power of a major artefakt, IMHO. The costs of creating epic items are simply too high. Losing nearly a level for creating a +6 weapon is nerfing.

The feats: Not all epic feats are important for my campaign (e.g. those related to rogues, arcane archers, rangers, barbarians, bards, monks), but still, there are some of them unlikely to be ever taken by a PC. I don't have the ELH at work, but I remember some epic feats that increase a non-epic feat (like greater spell penetration) by another +2 bonus. Wow. Compared to the SR of many epic monsters, this is really a great improvement...

 

[Plane Sailing]

My epic rules are simple but workable:

Above character level 20, this is how it will work:

• Add an extra level in a class where you dont have 20 levels. You gain the skills, BAB and class abilities of that class. (i.e. no epic progression, all epics are multiclass)

• if you already have 20 class levels in a spellcasting class, any extra class levels give 1 extra slot at a level above the highest current one. Eg a wiz20/archmage3 would have a 10th, 11th and 12th level spell slot. These can contain metamagiced higher level spells (eg maximised meteor swarm in the 12th level slot) This is basically the original Forgotten Realms rule.

• The epic feat list is different to the one in the epic book - they are very powerful. eg:

vorpal strike: any crit on a 20 req a fort ST vs damage or die.
indomitable fortitude/reflexes/will - gives the equivalent of "improved evasion" when ST against a particular type
Spell Resistance of 11+character level (or +5 to exisiing resistance)
Metamagic - huge area - at the cost of +5 spell levels any spell with a spread or burst effect has its diameter multiplied by 10.



To my mind shoring up poor saving throws is an issue for the PC. If someone wants to multiclass fighter with barbarian into epic levels don't come crying to me if you fail a will saving throw!

 

[TBoarder]

This "house rule" is made to hopefully fix the weirdness of a character taking 20 levels of wizard before taking 20 levels of fighter having fewer attacks than a charcetr who takes 20 levels of fighter before taking 20 levels of wizard. The character's BAB the best of his non-epic class's BAB up to 20th level... Any levels left over contribute to Epic Attack Bonus. Examples, since I probably worded that poorly

Wizard 20/Fighter 20 would have a BAB of +20 with the accompanying iterative attacks, with an additional +10 Epic Attack bonus

Fighter 20/Wizard 20 would therefore be exactly the same, due to his 20 non-epic Fighter level.

Rogue 10/Wizard 10/Fighter 10 would have a BAB of +17 with an Epic Attack Bonus of +5, no matter what order each class was taken in, the Rogue and Fighter levels being the ones that contribute to the character's BAB..

Fighter 30/Rogue 10 would have a BAB of +20 and an Epic Attack Bonus of +10, just like the first two examples.

This eliminates the Wizard 20/Fighter 20 and Fighter 20/Wizard 20 oddness and makes multiclassing in epic levels more worthwhile without being overpowering or overly complicated (despite my inability to explain it clearly )

This idea got absolutely slammed on the WotC boards, so my ego is fragile right now... go easy on me if you hate it

 

[CRGreathouse]

Most of all, I don't like the development of epic spells. It's too expensive and the spellcraft checks for an epic spell (that deserves the description "epic", for example, there are some so called "epic" spells in the PGtF that are plain weak) become quickly insane.

You have two basic choices here: reduce development costs across the board (divide by some number) and reduce the Spellcraft DCs accordingly, or to simply ignore the Epic Spellcasting feat and use Improved Spellcasting Capacity instead (perhaps using some epic spells as 10th, etc. level spells if you want access to them or don't like metamagic).

The power of epic items should not exceed the power of a major artefakt, IMHO. The costs of creating epic items are simply too high. Losing nearly a level for creating a +6 weapon is nerfing.

So you're saying the items should be considerably weaker and less expensive? That doesn't sound too hard to me; there's no inherant balance issue there.

The feats: Not all epic feats are important for my campaign (e.g. those related to rogues, arcane archers, rangers, barbarians, bards, monks), but still, there are some of them unlikely to be ever taken by a PC. I don't have the ELH at work, but I remember some epic feats that increase a non-epic feat (like greater spell penetration) by another +2 bonus. Wow. Compared to the SR of many epic monsters, this is really a great improvement...

I'm not sure that this is really a problem, since there are so many epic feats out there. For my campaign I've written many new epic feats, but that's really only a concern if you use it for world-building or if you plan on running into the high epic levels. At the low epic levels, the ELH feats should be enough to give players choices and differentiate their characters easily.

Yes, there are some weaker and some stronger, but you can either ignore the issue (since there are still enough to go around) or trust to your understanding of game balance and double the benefits of some of the weaker feats. For example, I let characters with Epic Endurance sleep in heavy armor without penalty.

 

[Kerrick]

Our epic system is similar to Plane's (and it seems like a lot of people are doing it this way) - all core classes are capped at L20. After L20, you either choose levels in another core class, or you PrC. Like he said, if you're whining because you got a low Will save from 20 Ftr levels, that's your own *bleep* fault.

Item creation: I'd suggest simply multiplying the prices by x5 instead of x10. I'm going to take a hard look at the system and do a workable fix when I get the chance, but I think that'd work for the short term.

Spells: If you want, I'm working on a level-based system that I can send you. It's still in beta, but I've got more changes to make (again, when I have the time - I'm so backlogged with other stuff it's not funny).

 

[Dark Dragon]

You have two basic choices here: reduce development costs across the board (divide by some number) and reduce the Spellcraft DCs accordingly, or to simply ignore the Epic Spellcasting feat and use Improved Spellcasting Capacity instead (perhaps using some epic spells as 10th, etc. level spells if you want access to them or don't like metamagic).

Dividing the costs and DCs by a number (costs by 5, DCs by 5 or reduced by 10, perhaps, but I have to look at the various seed DCs first...) seems to be a good idea. Ignoring epic spellcasting would remove some versatility and character development, IMHO.

So you're saying the items should be considerably weaker and less expensive? That doesn't sound too hard to me; there's no inherant balance issue there.

That issue is a bit difficult to handle: The DMG (and the artefact descriptions therein) was not designed for epic campaigns. AFAIK, no DMG artefact weapon provides a +6 enhancement. It has strong powers, but is weaker against DR/epic than a +6 weapon...OTOH, some artefact powers are difficult to create with epic item creation.
Hm, perhaps artefact weapons should bypass DR/epic and magic, for example, even if it is only a +4 weapon.

I don't like the imagination that a PC nearly loses a level to create a +6 weapon (with no other powers). So, lowering the costs for epic items might help, as well as increasing an artefact's power so that it can't be reproduced with epic item creation. This would need some work done on artefacts that might by important for a campaign.

Item creation: I'd suggest simply multiplying the prices by x5 instead of x10. I'm going to take a hard look at the system and do a workable fix when I get the chance, but I think that'd work for the short term.

Spells: If you want, I'm working on a level-based system that I can send you. It's still in beta, but I've got more changes to make (again, when I have the time - I'm so backlogged with other stuff it's not funny).

That would be a great help and a surely a good base to work on!

 

[CRGreathouse]

That issue is a bit difficult to handle: The DMG (and the artefact descriptions therein) was not designed for epic campaigns. AFAIK, no DMG artefact weapon provides a +6 enhancement. It has strong powers, but is weaker against DR/epic than a +6 weapon...OTOH, some artefact powers are difficult to create with epic item creation.
Hm, perhaps artefact weapons should bypass DR/epic and magic, for example, even if it is only a +4 weapon.

The DMG has the sword of Kas, which has a +6 enhancement bonus. The ELH also has artifacts, so there shouldn't be a lack there.

I'd suggest duplicating artifact powers by pricing them on the DMG scales: +X or +X,000 gp.

I don't like the imagination that a PC nearly loses a level to create a +6 weapon (with no other powers). So, lowering the costs for epic items might help, as well as increasing an artefact's power so that it can't be reproduced with epic item creation. This would need some work done on artefacts that might by important for a campaign.

The XP costs to create epic items is lower than to create nonepic items, according to the DMG. Does this help?