Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6395461" data-attributes="member: 87792">This is a genuine issue where argument on the internet has made me&nbsp; change my perspective.&nbsp; At first I thought they were stupid - but if I&nbsp; was going after stupid I'd go after the flail snail, the flumph, and the&nbsp; beholder.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sexist?&nbsp; I thought so too at first.&nbsp; But I frequently read&nbsp; posts like [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] 's first on this thread - which is both&nbsp; the single most relevant and informative post on this entire thread and&nbsp; appears to have been lost to the discussion, so I'm quoting it in full:The issue is that there are two competing sexist tropes to&nbsp; be dealt with.&nbsp; The first is pornification; the obvious examples of&nbsp; which are Pneumatic Breasts Everywhere and the boob plate, and the&nbsp; second is erasure.&nbsp; Pornification is obvious.&nbsp; Ridiculous double&nbsp; D breasts on all female characters, and stripperiffic armour that&nbsp; protects nothing take all of two seconds to explain.&nbsp; Boobplates are a&nbsp; specific form of striperrific armour; a lot of historical male armour&nbsp; had ludicrous codpieces and those are fine. The specific problem with&nbsp; most boob plates is that they guide the sword and the force of the blow&nbsp; into the sternum - which is where you least want it.&nbsp;&nbsp; Form over&nbsp; function (as with <a href="http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/king-henry-viii/images/2430710/title/armour-wore-king-henry-viii-photo" target="_blank">Henry VIII's codpiece</a>) is normally fine.&nbsp; Form at the expense of function is not.&nbsp; Small breasts for dragonborn aren't a problem.The&nbsp; more complex problem is erasure.&nbsp; In this society male is the default&nbsp; gender.&nbsp; We talk about men and (wo)men.&nbsp; We talk about a group of guys&nbsp; of mixed gender - but try calling a group of mixed gender girls and see&nbsp; the response you get outside certain counter-cultural circles.&nbsp; I could&nbsp; go on.&nbsp; But instead I'm going to go to Hollywood.&nbsp; And <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/20-mustknow-facts-about-g_b_5869564.html" target="_blank">grab some statistics</a>.&nbsp; 29% of leads and 31% of speaking parts belong to women.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.cartoonbrew.com/disney/frozen-head-of-animation-says-animating-women-is-really-really-difficult-89467.html" target="_blank">Pixar has one female face</a>&nbsp; (and Pixar of all people are known to be progressive).&nbsp; And it's far&nbsp; far worse in mainstream tabletop gaming.&nbsp; What proportion of gamers are&nbsp; female?&nbsp; And when you DM, what proportion of your NPCs are female?&nbsp; I&nbsp; know mine is nowhere near 50% unless I either record their names, am&nbsp; deliberately playing with gender archetypes, or roll a dice.&nbsp; (I've done&nbsp; all three).&nbsp; In Britain and America the default gender is male (even to&nbsp; those of us who try to use the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they" target="_blank">singular they</a>)&nbsp; - so any being without demonstrated gender specific attributes is&nbsp; assumed to be male.&nbsp; Especially in the case of Dragonborn when things&nbsp; like physical strength and being physically imposing (as Dragonborn are)&nbsp; correlate with being male.Tasteful dragonborn breasts&nbsp; aren't especially pornified.&nbsp; So they aren't seen by most women as a&nbsp; sexism problem that way.&nbsp; They are just something that is.&nbsp; But on the&nbsp; other hand they deal with the female erasure problem.And I&nbsp; suspect that I've just summarised the sexism argument at Viking&nbsp; Bastard's table - with one of the women arguing about pornification, one&nbsp; about erasure, and the player actually playing a dragonborn giving hers&nbsp; breasts for better identification.And&nbsp; now I'm going to single out one post on this thread as an example of&nbsp; what not to do.&nbsp; And I'm singling out [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] on the grounds you are&nbsp; normally better than this - there are plenty of other posts I could have&nbsp; chosen.From everything I can tell here you are speaking for women without&nbsp; actually listening to them.&nbsp; We've already had [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] give one female perspective - that she wants dragonborn with breasts.&nbsp;&nbsp; We've had a second female perspective from [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] say &quot;If it makes&nbsp; female gamers feel more represented then fine. I just know&nbsp; that the female players I know don't really have a passionate view about&nbsp; boobs on monsters.&quot;&nbsp; We've had [MENTION=509]Viking Bastard[/MENTION] give an account of a&nbsp; table where things were argued both ways by women.&nbsp; And yet despite the&nbsp; comments of everyone I am aware of on this thread who is a woman or has&nbsp; directly referenced women (again we run into the &quot;default gender is&nbsp; male&quot; thing I was talking about earlier) you've decided what is and&nbsp; isn't sexist.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6395461, member: 87792"] This is a genuine issue where argument on the internet has made me change my perspective. At first I thought they were stupid - but if I was going after stupid I'd go after the flail snail, the flumph, and the beholder. Sexist? I thought so too at first. But I frequently read posts like [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] 's first on this thread - which is both the single most relevant and informative post on this entire thread and appears to have been lost to the discussion, so I'm quoting it in full: The issue is that there are two competing sexist tropes to be dealt with. The first is pornification; the obvious examples of which are Pneumatic Breasts Everywhere and the boob plate, and the second is erasure. Pornification is obvious. Ridiculous double D breasts on all female characters, and stripperiffic armour that protects nothing take all of two seconds to explain. Boobplates are a specific form of striperrific armour; a lot of historical male armour had ludicrous codpieces and those are fine. The specific problem with most boob plates is that they guide the sword and the force of the blow into the sternum - which is where you least want it. Form over function (as with [URL="http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/king-henry-viii/images/2430710/title/armour-wore-king-henry-viii-photo"]Henry VIII's codpiece[/URL]) is normally fine. Form at the expense of function is not. Small breasts for dragonborn aren't a problem. The more complex problem is erasure. In this society male is the default gender. We talk about men and (wo)men. We talk about a group of guys of mixed gender - but try calling a group of mixed gender girls and see the response you get outside certain counter-cultural circles. I could go on. But instead I'm going to go to Hollywood. And [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/20-mustknow-facts-about-g_b_5869564.html"]grab some statistics[/URL]. 29% of leads and 31% of speaking parts belong to women. [URL="http://www.cartoonbrew.com/disney/frozen-head-of-animation-says-animating-women-is-really-really-difficult-89467.html"]Pixar has one female face[/URL] (and Pixar of all people are known to be progressive). And it's far far worse in mainstream tabletop gaming. What proportion of gamers are female? And when you DM, what proportion of your NPCs are female? I know mine is nowhere near 50% unless I either record their names, am deliberately playing with gender archetypes, or roll a dice. (I've done all three). In Britain and America the default gender is male (even to those of us who try to use the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they"]singular they[/URL]) - so any being without demonstrated gender specific attributes is assumed to be male. Especially in the case of Dragonborn when things like physical strength and being physically imposing (as Dragonborn are) correlate with being male. [I]Tasteful[/I] dragonborn breasts aren't especially pornified. So they aren't seen by most women as a sexism problem that way. They are just something that is. But on the other hand they deal with the female erasure problem. And I suspect that I've just summarised the sexism argument at Viking Bastard's table - with one of the women arguing about pornification, one about erasure, and the player actually playing a dragonborn giving hers breasts for better identification. And now I'm going to single out one post on this thread as an example of what not to do. And I'm singling out [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] on the grounds you are normally better than this - there are plenty of other posts I could have chosen. From everything I can tell here you are speaking for women without actually listening to them. We've already had [MENTION=82746]HardcoreDandDGirl[/MENTION] give one female perspective - that she wants dragonborn with breasts. We've had a second female perspective from [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] say "If it makes female gamers feel more represented then fine. I just know that the female players I know don't really have a passionate view about boobs on monsters." We've had [MENTION=509]Viking Bastard[/MENTION] give an account of a table where things were argued both ways by women. And yet despite the comments of everyone I am aware of on this thread who is a woman or has directly referenced women (again we run into the "default gender is male" thing I was talking about earlier) you've decided what is and isn't sexist. [/QUOTE]

Verification