D&D 3E/3.5 Infinite Crafting XP? (3.5)

[Jack Simth]

So I was thinking about the game rules recently, and I think I found an odd loophole in the Core rules, revolving around the spell Greater Restoration, and critters that can Drain Levels in a controlled manner (such as, say, the Wight).

So suppose you're a Lawful-Neutral Cleric-14 (or higher, but 14 is the minimum), who Rebukes/Commands undead. And you have some crafting you need to do, but problem: You're at exactly 14th level.

How do you solve this dilemma?
1) Command a Wight.
2) Tell the wight to hit you exactly once (giving you a negative level).
3) Voluntarily fail your save, converting the negative level into Level Loss ... which sets your XP to midpoint between 13th and 14th (112,500 xp).
4) As you're 13th level now, with 84,500 xp, you have 6,500 xp available for crafting, spells, or other purposes (but see below - you need to reserve enough for a particular spell).
5) Craft a bunch... but don't take more than 13 weeks. And save 500 xp for the next step.
6) When you're done crafting, use your remaining 500 xp to cast Greater Restoration on yourself, which restores: "the creature to the highest level it had previously attained". You're now level 14 again, exactly.

(this can also be done by a Wizard-18+, or a Sorcerer-19+, using Wish).

No Thought Bottle required.

Any particular flaws (besides the standard cheese responses, where the DM says "knock it off", "I'm house-ruling that to not work", throws books at you, or similar)?

 

[HoboGod]

I'd think doing something like that would succeed, but put you in level debt. I'm not sure if that's RAW, though.

 

[radmod]

6) When you're done crafting, use your remaining 500 xp to cast Greater Restoration on yourself, which restores: "the creature to the highest level it had previously attained". You're now level 14 again, exactly.

First, I can't remember where it says it, but you cannot voluntarily fail the save since you can't purposely do anything that causes you to lose a level. I know I've read that, but I don't know the exact wording.
Second, you may be technically right. However, GR "reverses level drains" and restores you. In your example, you lose xp due to crafting, which is not restore-able. When you cast a restoration on yourself, you return to your previous level attained minus the experience lost for casting. At the worst, it is RAI.

 

[Jack Simth]

First, I can't remember where it says it, but you cannot voluntarily fail the save since you can't purposely do anything that causes you to lose a level. I know I've read that, but I don't know the exact wording.

There's two places, neither of which do quite what you want: Spell Components: "You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare". There's also one for crafting with similar wording. Doesn't apply to voluntarily failing saving throws, I'm afraid.

Second, you may be technically right.

I'm worried I might be, yes.

However, GR "reverses level drains" and restores you. In your example, you lose xp due to crafting, which is not restore-able. When you cast a restoration on yourself, you return to your previous level attained minus the experience lost for casting.

If you're a fighter-20, and run into a crazy-bad day with a bunch of wights and poor rolls, end up level drained down to 1st, gain 55,000 xp (putting you into 11th) in the space of a few weeks, and then get a Greater Restoration from a hired Cleric (putting you up to 'the highest level you had previously attained' = 20th), what's your experience point total?

If changes made while under the effects of level loss still apply, then you've got 245,000 xp... enough for level 22. If they do not, then you've got the normal XP value for 20th (190,000). However, as Greater Restoration explicitly puts you up to the highest level you had previously attained... you're not level 22 (you've never previously attained that level).

At the worst, it is RAI.

Well, yes, but I mentioned that:
"...the standard cheese responses, where the DM says 'knock it off', 'I'm house-ruling that to not work', throws books at you, or similar"

 

[Herzog]

Ah. So you found some way to profit from level loss, instead of the generic screw over it gives.

I tend to houserule level loss to avoid the screw-overs (you loose all the xp you gained while being level-drained) but it would fix your problem too:

My current houserule is to make the temporary level-loss permanent (with some minor changes that I won't go into here) and assign a -1 LA to the character in regards to xp gain.
The negative level is removed as soon as he gets a restoration OR when he regains the level through normal means. (Meaning the restoration time is limited to the amound of time required to get to the next level)

But yes, other than houseruling I would say your solution is RAW.
You may, AFAIK, volontarily fail saves.

Apart from that, however, I noticed another peculiar thing of level loss/greater restoration: If you loose a level, than cast greater restoration on yourself, you do not have to pay the xp for it (that is, you do, but that is regained together with the xp lost due to level loss)

 

[radmod]

There's two places, neither of which do quite what you want:...

No, that's not what I'm thinking of. Man, this is bugging me now. I remember I had just leveled, and a player was talking about casting the spell that allows one to link everyone together at the cost of xp. When I was looking it up I ran across something that said you couldn't voluntarily lose a level. When I talked to the guy the next week, he said, without prompting, that I couldn't be part of the spell because it would cause a loss of a level. The thing is I'm pretty sure it's not in the wording of the spell but somewhere else.

If you're a fighter-20, and run into a crazy-bad day with a bunch of wights and poor rolls, end up level drained down to 1st, gain 55,000 xp (putting you into 11th) in the space of a few weeks, and then get a Greater Restoration from a hired Cleric (putting you up to 'the highest level you had previously attained' = 20th), what's your experience point total?

The highest level you had previously attained + any new experience you've gained (or lost)

If changes made while under the effects of level loss still apply, then you've got 245,000 xp... enough for level 22. If they do not, then you've got the normal XP value for 20th (190,000). However, as Greater Restoration explicitly puts you up to the highest level you had previously attained... you're not level 22 (you've never previously attained that level).

Yes, it's all about 'restoring.' GR 'restores' you to your previous level, e.g. it restores the xp that you lost. It cannot give you more xp than you had lost since that would not be 'restoring'. At one point in time, perhaps 2e, that was the 'official' ruling on what you've asked, or similar. I imagine it never got put in 3.x.

Well, yes, but I mentioned that:
"...the standard cheese responses, where the DM says 'knock it off', 'I'm house-ruling that to not work', throws books at you, or similar"

Hence, "at the worst."

 

[jefgorbach]

Hmm, since GR puts you at the minimum Xp for the level you lost, it effectively undoes any Xp changes incurred between losing the level and its restoration -- so the unfortunate 20th level fighter who dropped to 1st level and worked his way upto 11th before having GR cast would have 190,000xp, the same as if he had it cast while 1st level.

The 11,000xp he earned between losing the levels and GR would disappear rather than be added post-GR so the Xp invested into the magic items during that period should likewise disappear when GR is cast.

Since RAW states (under Item Creation) "a character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level" it cant be deducted from the Xp amount restored by GR. Consequently it seems reasonable to require the affected objects to save vs destruction since removing the invested xp damages the supporting enchantments AND (if successfully saved) be rendered inert until the xp is reinvested.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I never liked how xp is lost & restored anyway. Just do a hair more bookkeeping: Record how much was drained. When it's restored you get that amount back. As for a level drain--it's a fixed amount equal to the xp for your previous level unless that would not cause a level loss then it's the amount for your current level.