Ingram Sales Numbers of D&D 4th Edition Books

[Twowolves]

Uh What?



Right there.

LoL! So much for my speed reading skills. My bad!

It probably would have helped if I'd "sped-read" the post he was quoting instead of the next one in line. So much for scanning a thread instead of reading every post!

Carry on...

 

[Treebore]

He's also citing their claim of "6 million D&D players world-wide" to support his claim that 4e is selling horribly (since it isn't reaching even 1/6 of that number).

Funny how their facts can't be trusted, unless they dovetail nicely with his preconceived notions.

My preconceived notions? At least I am going by comparison of hard numbers. Whats your proof I have only notions? Nothing but your opinion.

Anyone who can understand numbers can see that there is a HUGE difference between "6 Million" and hundreds of thousands. That the perception given by having 6 Million fans but the fact that only a few hundred thousand sales is vastly different.

IF you want to ignore this huge discrepancy that is your choice, but don't act like the difference is just a "notion".

 

[The Little Raven]

Its quit obvious that when they put we have "6 Million D&D fans World Wide" and then in the same document that they have only sold "hundreds of thousands of our core books" that one statement or the other is seriously misleading when they cannot both be true.

Their latest research into the industry indicated that 6 million people around the world claim to be D&D players. You are jumping immediately to the assumption that "D&D player" automatically means "4th Edition D&D player" when there is no evidence to support this claim, and ample evidence from previous surveys which came up with millions of D&D players worldwide that it applies to all editions to D&D, past and present.

You seem completely fixated on "WotC is lying" and seem to be willing to spin any kind of statements or data to support that belief, regardless of whether the facts actually support you or not.

 

[The Little Raven]

At least I am going by comparison of hard numbers.

Numbers that you alternately claim are outright lies or hard facts. You're waffling like a house of pancakes.

Whats your proof I have only notions?

Because you have no evidence. Without evidence, all your claims are unsupported. It's even worse when you cite "evidence" that you claim is unreliable or false. Using figures you claim are untrustworthy to support your claims gives you zero credibility.

Anyone who can understand numbers can see that there is a HUGE difference between "6 Million" and hundreds of thousands.

And anyone who can understand that the "6 million" number is one given for D&D players of ALL editions, not just the current, would know that you're ignoring facts merely to suit the claim you are making.

 

[Mark]

Because you have no evidence. Without evidence, all your claims are unsupported.

What evidence supports the idea that ceasing to sell OOP product PDFs will support FLGSs?

 

[Treebore]

As you can see, it's all a bunch of voodoo. The only people who have a clue as to how many books have been sold is WoTC, and even they don't know for sure.

Agreed, which is why they only said "hundreds of thousands sold" instead of "386,478 sold". They may not have given a exact number, but they did give a solid "ball park" range, which is certainly below 1 million, total. When you take into account there are at elast 3 books in the "core" then you can get even closer by dividing 999,999 by 3, and know that the books sales are no higher than 333,333 for each of them.

You can then estimate even better numbers by using excepted ratios of 6 players to every DM, or 3 to 1, and from there you can come up with very solid estimates of how many DMGs, PH's, and MM's have sold.

No matter which numbers come up, they certainly didn't serve a customer base of 6 Million fans. At most 2 Million, more than likely there are less than 1 million players of 4E. Most likely right around 500,000.

So people can call my estimates assumptions or notions, but WOTC is still the one who tried to push the perception that they had 6 million D&D fans when they clearly know they do not. Certainly not for their 4th edition, but I guess people defending WOTC shows that their marketed perceptions are bought into, no matter how clearly their newly revealed numbers prove otherwise.

 

[Treebore]

Numbers that you alternately claim are outright lies or hard facts. You're waffling like a house of pancakes.



Because you have no evidence. Without evidence, all your claims are unsupported. It's even worse when you cite "evidence" that you claim is unreliable or false. Using figures you claim are untrustworthy to support your claims gives you zero credibility.



And anyone who can understand that the "6 million" number is one given for D&D players of ALL editions, not just the current, would know that you're ignoring facts merely to suit the claim you are making.

Wow, you really don't like numbers and logic, do you? Go ahead, believe what you want, twist things how you wish. The facts are the facts.

 

[The Little Raven]

What evidence supports the idea that ceasing to sell OOP product PDFs will support FLGSs?

Maybe you should ask me this in the thread where we are discussing brick-and-mortar stores, rather than in this one where we aren't discussing that.

 

[The Little Raven]

Wow, you really don't like numbers and logic, do you?

I love both, which is why I became a programmer when I was younger.

However, I fail to see any logic applied when you, in the same breath, claim their numbers are not to be trusted and use those numbers as support for what you are claiming.

 

[phloog]

And anyone who can understand that the "6 million" number is one given for D&D players of ALL editions, not just the current, would know that you're ignoring facts merely to suit the claim you are making.

But isn't kind of the point that the six million statement isn't really aimed at people who can 'understand that...is one given for D&D players of ALL editions'...but at people who will likely make the assumption that 6M "fans" is 6M customers of whatever they're putting out NOW?

It's part marketing spin - "Our fan base is HUGE", and quite possibly a deliberate obfuscation on their part to inflate the perception of stolen business.

Sure, WE on these forums probably know that players span editions, but when WOTC goes to court and begins to try to receive damages, and when these damages must surely have to be based on some estimate of the POTENTIAL lost sales, it becomes "legally truthful, but not helpful" to speak of 6M "fans", and then if a judge or jury doesn't ever find out it crosses editions, no biggie.

Those who hear the statement and aren't familiar with D&D might think "Wow...they might have sold 6M of those new handbooks, but now there are all these illegal pdfs going around so they've only sold a hundred thousand" - - instead of the likely more accurate "Lots of people play this game, but a HUGE number still play versions that have no need for this book, so they aren't lost sales".