Inherent Bonuses / CR Adjustments ??

[Sepulchrave II]

Do you think that two +5 inherent bonuses to ability scores are worth +1CR?
Are six worth +3CR?

I know that it's all very situational, but does anyone have any ideas / general guidelines ?

 

[Kelleris]

Depends on the critter and the level, really. At higher levels I'll typically just give monsters (especially NPCs!) a few inherent bonuses to stats just to keep them competitive or to shore up a weak point, like a Will save that's 14 points lower than the Fortitude save. When I do that, I haven't adjusted the CR at all and haven't found any problems.

I'd say NPCs above, oh, 12th level or so can be given inherent bonuses to ability scores pretty freely without adjusting the CR at all because high-level NPCs are otherwise very difficult to make competitive. Monsters I would give a +1 CR for two stats (comparable to the +1 for using the elite array, really), and +2 CR for all 6 stats - at all levels for both adjustments unless it's a monster that I think is going to be pitching below its CR and I just want a quick-and-dirty way to bump it up some.

 

[Claudius Gaius]

Well, the WOTC 3.0 "Savage Species" answer is pretty much "It depends", and in a lot of cases the old GM-judgement call works quite well enough. If you want a more complex answer, most point-buy systems have exact systems for adding up the values of various abilities. You could do it with BESM, but everyone else would have to be playing that. In Mutants and Masterminds you just spend some points buying abilities, label them "racial" if it suits you, and it takes care of itself automatically. If you want 3.0-3.5 compatability, both Eclipse and The Practical Enchanter (shareware versions are linked in the sig) have systems for calculating it and designing your own species.

 

[Nifft]

Count them as two +5 Tomes -- as magical equipment, which you can price. It won't be any worse an abuse than giving the critter a Scroll of wish or shapechange which it uses against the PCs.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Count them as two +5 Tomes -- as magical equipment, which you can price. It won't be any worse an abuse than giving the critter a Scroll of wish or shapechange which it uses against the PCs.

I have been, but it seems kind of unfair/ double whammy - not only does the creature gain the benefits of the bonuses, but that's 275,000 gp in loot which the PCs have no chance of seeing. Even a wish is only 30K. It seems like there should be a more equitable way of dealing with it.

 

[Nifft]

I have been, but it seems kind of unfair/ double whammy - not only does the creature gain the benefits of the bonuses, but that's 275,000 gp in loot which the PCs have no chance of seeing. Even a wish is only 30K. It seems like there should be a more equitable way of dealing with it.

There probably should -- but that's closest to the official WotC interpretation, given that it's also how they recommend DMs "price" grafts.

You could compensate by giving the PCs a few free Tomes themselves, which are a perfect counter-balance, since the NPCs derive zero combat benefit from their possession.

(What I do is give treasure independently of NPC "wealth", because I don't want to feel constrained by using or not using classed NPCs vs. equipment-independent monsters. My PCs get their treasure in large chunks every level-and-a-half or so, with the exact reward value depending on how much they managed to glean from their kills.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sepulchrave II]

What I do is give treasure independently of NPC "wealth", because I don't want to feel constrained by using or not using classed NPCs vs. equipment-independent monsters.

Me too. But I guess there comes a point for me where it is nonsensical for powerful NPCs (or outsiders - say a 40HD solar) to not possess inherent bonuses.

Maybe I should phrase the question differently. If the elite array (25-point) is worth +1CR, how much is a 54-point build (16,16,16,15,15,15) worth?

 

[Rackhir]

Me too. But I guess there comes a point for me where it is nonsensical for powerful NPCs (or outsiders - say a 40HD solar) to not possess inherent bonuses.

Maybe I should phrase the question differently. If the elite array (25-point) is worth +1CR, how much is a 54-point build (16,16,16,15,15,15) worth?

A lot has to do with how it interacts with what stats are important for the creature/character. A +8 to charisma isn't very useful for a fighter, but it would make a substantial difference if it was on Str or Con. For casters or creatures with stat dependent abilities (like poison being tied to con) a high stat makes even more of a difference since it directly affects their DCs. Classes that depend on multiple stats, like Monks can get a lot more out of multiple bonuses than other classes/creatures. Your example isn't significantly more powerful than the standard elite array, but the same point buy distributed in 18, 18, 18, 8, 14, 8, could arguably be +2 for a fighter type. A +10 to a caster's primary stat could easily be worth more than the entire rest of the stat bonuses.

A point about the "elite" stat arrays. Technically if you add class levels to a creature it gets the elite stats for free. This doesn't make any sense to me personally, as I don't see why something that makes a creature more powerful (the class levels) reduces the advantage they derive from the elite stat array. If anything I'd think it would increase it.

As far as powerful creatures like Solars possessing inherent bonuses. I always kind of took their stats to "include" such things. At least if you are talking "stock" Solars. if you are customizing it, well sky's the limit.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Sepulchrave-> "Maybe I should phrase the question differently. If the elite array (25-point) is worth +1CR, how much is a 54-point build (16,16,16,15,15,15) worth?"

I sometimes I use the Elite Array +2 (17/16/15/14/12/10) for noble or fated NPCs in my campaign and while it makes them more powerful among those of their CR, that by virtue in itself didn't really warrant bumping them up a whole CR even, they'd just be a "tough CR 12" or whatever, like Aasimars are technically +1 ECL though very low on that end. For 16, 16, 16, 15, 15, 15 I'd probably add +1 CR to most monsters, (rewarding the players extra gold for that CR) - But then compare how much these monsters are actually challenging your players, if +2-3 AC/Saves/DCs/extra HP/Attacks/Damage is fairly powerful, bump it up to +2 CR. If it's only mildly useful, +1 seems safe. Heaven knows Epic games are very hard to adjudicate CR wise anyways (to me it feels like a Paper/Rock/Scissors game mostly), and a lot of the monster CRs in the ELH seem much underpriced themselves.

If it helps recall in a WotC supplement an item that gave +6 enhancement bonus to all stats, but was priced about as much as 4x one of those items (~144,000 gp). From a FAQ when someone asked why it was so underpriced and the answer was that very few classes and monsters benefit from all six stats so the remaining ones were given at a discount, which was kind of silly in retrospect since it still only took up one item slot, but that was their logic. Sorry I can't get you more detailed information, it could've been the Headband of Perfection from Sword & Fist but IIRC that only gave +6 to 3 stats.

Rackhir-> Monsters getting the Elite array for classes for free makes sense to me because a lot of times, they could get double or triple the HD if they advanced by their monster type and often the lowest level class abilities, even in associated levels, don't add to their effectiveness much (Sneak Attack +1d6 and Evasion for +2 CR instead of 6 HD?) or would help a significant amount if they had some boosted up scores (Spells, Stunning Fist, Divine Grace, etc..) The Elite Array may be a bit unfair to give for free for just one level, but once you get up to 3+ it seems to make up for the lack of direct power they're getting.

 

[nittanytbone]

If the NPC spends wealth on the bonuses (thus precluding them from purchasing other combat-useful items), then no bonus to CR.

Otherwise, yes, there would be a bonus. Heck, according to the MM even giving a monster elite array bumps the CR! This is a much more significant boost. Even being a hobgoblin (+2 to two ability scores and a few other minor goodies) is +1 ECL; +5 to a pair of ability scores is at least +2 or 3 CR I'd think.