Input on a New Spell System

[maggot]

I want to get rid of spell preparation. But for various reasons, I don't want to go to all spontaneous casters. I want to keep the "feel" of the prepared spell casters such as the wizard. And for me that "feel" is that they have many different spells available and mix it up encounter to encounter, while spontaneous casters such as sorcerers generally use the same spell over and over again.

So my idea is to have a fixed spell list for clerics and wizards and other prepared spellcasters. By "fixed", I mean that the character picks his list and cannot change it. Each spell in the list can be used once per day.

Of course, this is a drop in flexibility. What should I use as compensation? I was thinking of an extra spell per level per day.

So instead of a first level wizard knowing a bunch of spells and being able to cast 1+bonus first level spells from any he knew, the first level wizard would have 2+bonus spell slots that would be permanently chosen and could be used once/day each.

Also, at level up, I would allow one spell per level to be swapped out for another spell.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Each spell in the list can be used once per day.

I understandwhat you are going after here, and I totally agree. I hate the vancian system as well, although spontaneous casters make it palatable. I really don't like the 1/day limitation, though. What about casters who plan on casting two Magic Missles? They cannot under your new system. As soon as you allow them to, you might as well go back to the spell preperation method.

I dunno what the solution is. The best solution I've found is a spell point system, but I like augmentation better than dice-based damage and to go through all the spells and revamp them is going to take a bunch of work!

Good luck finding your solution, though!

 

[airwalkrr]

I empathize with the desire to create a non-Vancian system, but I don't think this is the way to do it. There are a lot of problems with letting them cast each spell 1/day, so many I do not possibly have the time to go into them, but here are just a couple.

1. Not enough healing. Clerics can spontaneously cast cure spells but under this system they only get one cure light wounds a day. OUCH!

2. Too many spells. A cleric gets ALL the spells on his spell list? How do you decide whether or not to allow Spell Compendium spells, or other spells for that matter that could easily double or triple his spells per day? And high level clerics get as many 1st level spells per day as low-level clerics. Wizards simply gain too much firepower. The current system is balanced because wizards have to conserve resources.

A spell point system really is a pretty good idea. Unearthed Arcana has a nice system that works well if you simply let casters cast their spells at maximum caster level. The spell system was not designed for augmentation like psionics was so it is unfair to require it. At 9 points, magic missile is rarely going to be worth it.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

A spell point system really is a pretty good idea. Unearthed Arcana has a nice system that works well if you simply let casters cast their spells at maximum caster level. The spell system was not designed for augmentation like psionics was so it is unfair to require it. At 9 points, magic missile is rarely going to be worth it.

True, but 9d4+9 damage is not horrible for a 5th level spell that has no save. [Assuming the augment was 1d4+1 per powerpoint spent. Of course, a different augment would raise/lower this total. i picked one at random but seemed to make sense.]

Edit: the "energy" powers in XPH are often built on a d6 system, but they have a save for half to worry about as well.

 

[airwalkrr]

I was referencing specifically the UA spell point system, in which you increase your caster level by 1 for every 1 point. At that rate, it costs 2 points per missile, which kind of blows. If you spread it out to casting nine magic missiles each at a cost of 1 point, it looks nice, but that means you are wasting your action dealing 1d4+1 points of damage, an option you will typically use only when you have absolutely nothing better to do but feel the need to contribute in some small way.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, you could do something similar to what we did with metamagic:

Each metamagic has a level N from 1-4, typically equal to the number of extra spell levels under the old system (Empower is level 2, Still and Silent are 1, etc.). Using metamagic no longer increases spell level, but when a caster uses a level N metaform, that metaform is unavaliable for N rounds. Heighten, Quicken, Empower, etc. have one form available at each level, and they have to be picked separately. (To compensate for this, instead of each feat being a unique metaform, you get to pick two or three each time the "Expanded Metamagic" feat is taken, but you can't pick a level N until you have an N-1, and so on. So generally speaking, casters have plenty of them.)

My point is, you could do something similar; for instance, say that you can't use that individual spell again within the next 1dN rounds. (If N is odd, just use the next highest die and reroll any rolls above N; do this each time the spell is cast). Someone throwing level 9 spells will have to wait an average of 5 rounds after each, while low-level stuff isn't penalized nearly as much (a level 1 spell can be used every other round). Frankly, if someone's got level 9 spells, I wouldn't worry too much about them throwing infinite numbers of level 1 spells.

 

[maggot]

Okay, it seems that people are mis-understanding the system I'm proposing. I admit I didn't do a very good job explaining it.

Instead of selecting a new palette of spells every day, you have the same palette each day. So you can cast magic missle multiple times per day if you put it on your palette multiple times. You cannot cast every cleric spell every printed 1/day, because you only have as many spells per day as your class and level dictate. And clerics can still spontaneously cast cure light wounds as many times as they want. They just cannot change the spells they selected for day one on day two.

In exchange for this lack of flexibility, clerics and wizards get one extra spell per day per spell level.

I'm not looking a spell point system. Sorcerers, psions, Arcana Unearthed, Unearthed Arcana, etc. already have such systems in place. I'm looking for something more like the current prep system but without the switching of your spell palette each day.

 

[airwalkrr]

Oh, ouch! I would never play a wizard. Think about it. There is no reason for a spellbook. And you might as well be a sorcerer if that is the case. A wizard is going to top out at maybe 6 or 7 spells of 1st level. A sorcerer only has a smidgen fewer at 5, but he gets to cast just as many spells per day overall on top of being able to pick and choose how many of each. Same deal with the cleric. I think the system you propose is just way too penalizing.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Right, what he said. BAD idea. The one saving grace of the Wizard class is that they can leave a slot open for the 15-minute prep rule, allowing them to pull out those rarely-seen utility spells when needed. If you remove that, then the only spells you'd ever load would be the ones you know you'll use constantly (attacks, stat buffs, etc.), in which case you might as well play a Sorcerer.

 

[Lanefan]

I also dislike spell preparation. For many years, we've been using a homegrown spell point system that - while it works - has its drawbacks. But having to pre-guess what spells you'll need is a big-time pain in the spellbook!

I've come up with an idea to solve this; I'll post it to its own thread after the weekend.

Lanefan