Input wanted on home brew race

[DungeonmasterCal]

Is ECL +1 too low for this race?

Buil
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution
-2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence
Size: Medium (roll 1d10--a one indicates Large size with all the appropriate modifications)
30' Low Light Vision
+2 Natural Armor
Buil receive the Toughness Feat for free at first level
ECL +1 (Because of their many physical advantages, Buil PC's advance at a slightly slower pace than others).

Buil resemble their Human heritage far more than their Ogre, but there are significant differences in their appearance. Buil average about 7 feet tall, with some as much as 8. They have deep-set eyes under heavy brow ridges. A Buil has only 28 teeth as opposed to the 32 found in Humans, but these teeth are larger and heavier than those in Humans. They do not have protruding canines or small tusks as some believe, though these teeth are quite prominent when a Buil smiles. They are massively muscled and strong, able to lift and carry far greater loads than most around them. They are as intelligent as most Humans, though most never realize this because Buil don't always receive the education they deserve. A Buil's favored class is fighter.

 

[SpiralBound]

I'm not super-skilled at the arcane artform of assigning ECL, but given the strength & con bonuses, natural armor, AND free toughness feat, I think that it is definitely more than +1. I don't know if it would be all the way to +3, but certainly +2.

P.S. Cool race!

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

I'm not super-skilled at the arcane artform of assigning ECL, but given the strength & con bonuses, natural armor, AND free toughness feat, I think that it is definitely more than +1. I don't know if it would be all the way to +3, but certainly +2.

P.S. Cool race!

Thanks! This race made it's appearance over 10 years ago in my 2e homebrew setting. I've been revamping that setting for 3.5, and I personally thought the ECL might have been low, but I wanted some other opinions.

 

[paradox42]

Random factors in racial traits (I'm thinking specifically of the "1d10 for Large size" thing here) are generally a bad thing rules-wise, because they're difficult to balance. Some players can get lucky and have the good stuff, while others miss out. I'd recommend splitting the race into two races, one Medium-size and one Large (probably with slightly higher LA).

That said, I strongly disagree with WotC's stance that Large size must always mean LA +1 for a race- in my own games I've used homebrew races of Large size for years, and have never found the extra abilities to be unbalancing compared with some other abilities such as, say, built-in attack powers (Maenad and Dromite from the XPH leap to mind) or Flight (which, IMO, is also wildly overestimated in WotC books if it's winged flight with low maneuverability).

The only truly powerful ability that Large creatures have, compared with Medium, is their extra reach, and you can easily reduce that to 5 feet with a racial feature if you want to. Without 10 foot reach, Large size is actually more of a disadvantage than an advantage. They get penalties to AC and attack rolls, have more spaces they can be attacked from, and can't fit into spaces as small as their Medium companions can enter. While most Large-size monsters have more HD than Medium creatures, that's not part of the RAW for creature sizes- and even though the Monster Manual creature size change rules mandate increased STR, CON, and natural armor going from Medium to Large there's nothing that forces you to obey them. So the size, in isolation, is not in and of itself worth a Level Adjustment (unless you believe in negative LA I suppose ).

Keep the above in mind when making your Large-size Bull, and see what you come up with. Maybe it'll even be worth discarding the Medium version altogether- you've already decided to give them a LA of at least +1, so why not jump in with both feet?

 

[Arkhandus]

Buil
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution
-2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence
Size: Medium (roll 1d10--a one indicates Large size with all the appropriate modifications)
30' Low Light Vision
+2 Natural Armor
Buil receive the Toughness Feat for free at first level
ECL +1 (Because of their many physical advantages, Buil PC's advance at a slightly slower pace than others).
A Buil's favored class is fighter.

First, a note: I think the Large-size part should be more specifically defined and adjusted, since it would have a huge impact on the race; increasing from Medium to Large means a further +8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, and +1 natural armor, IIRC, which is a huge boost for an LA+1 race that already has +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 NA, and such. It makes the Large Buils far, far stronger than the Medium ones, and definitely more powerful than a +1 LA would cover.

Secondly, aside from the Large-size option, I'd say the race is balanced enough for LA+1. I'd have to say that those of Large size, if gaining full Large-size benefits, would have to also receive an additional +1 level adjustment to compensate. Otherwise, maybe just lessen the Large size benefits for those in the race who have them to being just an extra +4 Strength along with the standard -1 attack, -1 AC, -4 Hide, +4 grapple (and similar +4 size bonuses, whatever they were), 1d4 nonlethal (subdual if 3.0) base unarmed damage, larger weapon use, larger armors/shields/clothes/containers use, and Large carrying capacities. That would still be rather strong for +1 LA, but maybe not too much, since it would only be in 1/10th of the population (I imagine you'd still require PCs to roll for the chance of it, rather than just getting to choose). Don't give the greater natural reach and other Large ability modifiers and natural armor, I'd say (buil's already get much of that anyway, so it shouldn't be compounded). Unless you're going to give the Large buils a +2 LA instead of +1.

Thirdly, a comparison between a 2nd-level Human fighter and a 1st-level Buil fighter. 25 point buy for ability scores, standard DMG guidelines for wealth, full 1st-level HP and half max HP each additional level. Followed by comparisons at ECL 4 and ECL 8. The ECL choices are mostly human-favoring in nature, but not entirely; just levels at which a human would tend to get an extra level-based feat and/or ability boost; so it's almost but not quite the 'best case scenario' for the human, level-wise; feats and ability increases will be the most frequent little differences between the two races anyway in terms of advancement.

Joe, Human Fighter 2, ECL 2
Gear: Masterwork Greatsword, Longbow, 40 Arrows, Banded Mail
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Skills: Climb +9-6, Jump +9-6
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will -1
Combat Stats: HP 17, AC 17, Initiative +5, Greatsword +8 melee for 2d6+6 damage (power attack +6 melee for 2d6+10 damage), Longbow +3 ranged for 1d8 damage

Bob, Medium Buil Fighter 1, ECL 2
Gear: Masterwork Greatsword, Longbow, 40 Arrows, Banded Mail
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Skills: Climb +8-6, Jump +8-6
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will -1
Combat Stats: HP 15, AC 18, Initiative +0, Greatsword +9 melee for 2d6+9 damage (power attack +8 melee for 2d6+11 damage), Longbow +1 ranged for 1d8 damage

Advantages: Human's initiative, human's hit points, human's reflex save, human's normal ranged attack bonus, human's cleave feat, human's skills, buil's armor class, buil's normal melee attack bonus, buil's normal melee damage, buil's power attack bonus, buil's power attack damage.
Better Overall Choice: Probably human by a small margin, due to initiative, cleave attacks, and ranged accuracy.

Joe, Human Fighter 4, ECL 4
Gear: Greatsword +1, Masterwork Composite Longbow, 40 Arrows, Masterwork Full Plate
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Skills: Climb +11-5, Jump +11-5
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2
Combat Stats: HP 29, AC 19, Initiative +5, Greatsword +10 melee for 2d6+9 damage (power attack +6 melee for 2d6+17 damage), Longbow +6 ranged for 1d8+4 damage

Bob, Medium Buil Fighter 3, ECL 4
Gear: Greatsword +1, Masterwork Composite Longbow, 40 Arrows, Masterwork Full Plate
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Skills: Climb +9-5, Jump +9-5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0
Combat Stats: HP 29, AC 20, Initiative +4, Greatsword +11 melee for 2d6+10 damage (power attack +8 melee for 2d6+16 damage), Longbow +4 ranged for 1d8+6 damage

Advantages: Human's initiative, human's reflex save, human's will save, human's normal ranged attack bonus, human's skills, buil's armor class, buil's normal melee attack bonus, buil's normal melee damage, buil's power attack bonus, buil's power attack damage, buil's normal ranged damage.
Better Overall Choice: Probably buil by a small margin, due to melee accuracy and general damage bonuses.

Joe, Human Fighter 8, ECL 8
Gear: Greatsword +2, Masterwork Composite Longbow, 40 Arrows, Full Plate +1, Animated Large Steel Shield +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Great Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Skills: Climb +17-5, Jump +17-5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +5
Combat Stats: HP 53, AC 23, Initiative +5, Greatsword +17/+12 melee for 2d6+13 damage (power attack +9/+4 melee for 2d6+29 damage), Longbow +10/+5 ranged for 1d8+6 damage (point blank shot +11/+6 ranged for 1d8+7 damage, rapid shot +8/+3/+8 ranged for 1d8+6 damage, point blank shot and rapid shot +9/+4/+9 ranged for 1d8+7 damage)

Bob, Medium Buil Fighter 7, ECL 8
Gear: Greatsword +2, Masterwork Composite Longbow, 40 Arrows, Full Plate +1, Animated Large Steel Shield +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Iron Will, Great Cleave
Skills: Climb +12-5, Jump +12-5
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +5
Combat Stats: HP 57, AC 24, Initiative +4, Greatsword +17/+12 melee for 2d6+14 damage (power attack +10/+5 melee for 2d6+28 damage), Longbow +8/+3 ranged for 1d8+7 damage

Advantages: Human's initiative, human's reflex save, human's power attack damage, human's normal ranged attack bonus, human's number of ranged attacks per round, human's skills, buil's hit points, buil's armor class, buil's normal melee damage, buil's power attack bonus, buil's normal ranged damage.
Better Overall Choice: Probably human by a small margin, due to ranged accuracy, ranged attack rate, and skill ranks.

 

[Land Outcast]

LA +1, definetely (without the 10% possibility of size increase)

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Arkhandus, your breakdown and analysis exemplifies why I came to ENWorld to ask the question. Thank you very much, and I'll be making the adjustments for PC's tonight!