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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Intelligent Magic Swords? (2e AD&D)
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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9654927" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>As you say, due to alignment restrictions only a portion of intelligent swords (and other weapons; 5% of them in 2E) are actually usable by the PCs, but they still should be pretty common. In 1974 OD&D all magic swords were aligned and intelligent. Similar ratios existed then- 65% being Lawful, 25% Neutral, and 10% Chaotic. In 1E AD&D they reduced it to 1 in 4 and introduced the same more complex alignment table which 2E uses.</p><p></p><p>But it's clear that the original intent was for them to be commonplace, and for them to give Fighters additional special abilities and options to use, especially at higher levels as the party found more of them.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Detect Evil</em> works, right? Or the old trope of paying a sage for information, assuming the DM allows players to do things like using tongs or rope or other objects to pick up a magic weapon of unknown properties and haul it out of the dungeon without actually touching it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. It's important to remember that TSR D&D originally expected the DM to "thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures", which would "consist of various magic items and large amounts of wealth in the form of gems and jewelry" on each dungeon level (Gygax, The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, page 6), so those hoards would always be in addition to randomly generated treasures. While the issue of PCs having too much treasure started being discussed pretty quickly, and Gygax in the 1979 DMG gave famously stingy advice and guidance on limiting treasure, making it hard to identify and take home, taking it away via taxation and price inflation, etc., the expectation was still always that the DM would be taking an active hand and deliberately placing a large share of the magic items, rather than just relying on the random tables to generate them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. I think it's reasonable design to keep the chances low for a really powerful sword like that to appear randomly, though certainly at higher levels it seems clear to me that the DM would be expected to curate and "thoughtfully place" such weapons as major prizes in adventures they write.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Remember that in 2E XP for GP is an optional rule, and XP for magic items is only for CREATING them. As opposed to 1E and 0E, where XP for treasure was the main source, and XP for magic items was just for keeping and using them.</p><p></p><p>In 2E the core rules were roughly half XP in a given adventure from monsters, and half "story awards" for achieving goals/completing adventures.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I suspect the real reasons we saw fewer intelligent magic weapons in play and in published modules than the magic items rules indicate should have been found are some combination of:</p><p></p><p>A) The rules for ego battles and control are a pain in the butt to track and mildly annoying to resolve (Paul from Wandering DMs <a href="https://www.paulsgameblog.com/2018/01/29/contested-will-probabilities/" target="_blank">analyzed them and simplified the math</a> a while back, but it's still something the DM & player have to track during every session).</p><p>B) Having an intelligent, talking weapon in the party means functionally an additional NPC the DM is expected to RP regularly.</p><p>C) Due to the above factors, Gary and other designers figured it was better to let individual DMs "thoughtfully place" them. ie: curate the placement of such weapons to their own comfort level.</p><p>D) Due to factors A & B, and from just observing that they didn't show up all the time in existing modules, designers after Gary who DIDN'T know that the original intent had been for them to be commonplace shied away from them just as we individual DMs usually did.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9654927, member: 7026594"] As you say, due to alignment restrictions only a portion of intelligent swords (and other weapons; 5% of them in 2E) are actually usable by the PCs, but they still should be pretty common. In 1974 OD&D all magic swords were aligned and intelligent. Similar ratios existed then- 65% being Lawful, 25% Neutral, and 10% Chaotic. In 1E AD&D they reduced it to 1 in 4 and introduced the same more complex alignment table which 2E uses. But it's clear that the original intent was for them to be commonplace, and for them to give Fighters additional special abilities and options to use, especially at higher levels as the party found more of them. [I]Detect Evil[/I] works, right? Or the old trope of paying a sage for information, assuming the DM allows players to do things like using tongs or rope or other objects to pick up a magic weapon of unknown properties and haul it out of the dungeon without actually touching it. Yes. It's important to remember that TSR D&D originally expected the DM to "thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures", which would "consist of various magic items and large amounts of wealth in the form of gems and jewelry" on each dungeon level (Gygax, The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, page 6), so those hoards would always be in addition to randomly generated treasures. While the issue of PCs having too much treasure started being discussed pretty quickly, and Gygax in the 1979 DMG gave famously stingy advice and guidance on limiting treasure, making it hard to identify and take home, taking it away via taxation and price inflation, etc., the expectation was still always that the DM would be taking an active hand and deliberately placing a large share of the magic items, rather than just relying on the random tables to generate them. Yes. I think it's reasonable design to keep the chances low for a really powerful sword like that to appear randomly, though certainly at higher levels it seems clear to me that the DM would be expected to curate and "thoughtfully place" such weapons as major prizes in adventures they write. Remember that in 2E XP for GP is an optional rule, and XP for magic items is only for CREATING them. As opposed to 1E and 0E, where XP for treasure was the main source, and XP for magic items was just for keeping and using them. In 2E the core rules were roughly half XP in a given adventure from monsters, and half "story awards" for achieving goals/completing adventures. I suspect the real reasons we saw fewer intelligent magic weapons in play and in published modules than the magic items rules indicate should have been found are some combination of: A) The rules for ego battles and control are a pain in the butt to track and mildly annoying to resolve (Paul from Wandering DMs [URL='https://www.paulsgameblog.com/2018/01/29/contested-will-probabilities/']analyzed them and simplified the math[/URL] a while back, but it's still something the DM & player have to track during every session). B) Having an intelligent, talking weapon in the party means functionally an additional NPC the DM is expected to RP regularly. C) Due to the above factors, Gary and other designers figured it was better to let individual DMs "thoughtfully place" them. ie: curate the placement of such weapons to their own comfort level. D) Due to factors A & B, and from just observing that they didn't show up all the time in existing modules, designers after Gary who DIDN'T know that the original intent had been for them to be commonplace shied away from them just as we individual DMs usually did. [/QUOTE]
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