Intelligent Magic Swords? (2e AD&D)

[James Gasik]

So I was doing some research the other day and came upon a bit in the DMG where it claimed 25% of all magic swords have some sort of Intelligence.

Woah! One out of four of those generic +1 longswords cluttering up my campaigns were supposed to have extra powers? I don't recall this being that common with weapons found as treasure in published adventures; is this something that the game designers and most DM's either overlooked or chose to ignore?

 

[GuyBoy]

Didn’t play much 2E but 1E had a system for magic swords, setting their ego against player characters with a view to controlling them. I’m guessing it was based on a combination of Sauron’s ring and Elric’s Stormbringer.
Just an aside, but I remember a superb adventure in an early Dragon (something set in a mountain pass), where the ogre chief had an evil, intelligent magic Warhammer called Casrac, that controlled him and would betray him to access a powerful wielded. The aforementioned Casrac became a key entity in my campaign.

 

[Dioltach]

I played and DM'd 2nd edition for more than 20 years, and never came across any intelligent weapons.

But maybe they were just smart enough to play dumb.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Huh. I briefly ran 2E and don't remember that stat. That said, intelligent magic items are a lot of fun. I'm guessing they goosed the number so that more of them would show up in games.

As a DM, though, I think a group only needs one most of the time -- maybe two if they don't get along and your players are OK with watching you roleplay bickering magic items regularly.

 

[James Gasik]

Well after playing around with the dice a bit, I found most intelligent weapons have fairly low Ego scores. For example, the highest one I've generated was a Giant Slayer (+2, +3 vs. Giants),
Intelligence 16, Ego 15. NG.
Communicates by speech, can read non-magical languages and maps. Speaks: 6 languages.
Detects invisible objects in a 10' radius; detects gems, kind, and number in a 5' radius.
X-Ray Vision, 40 yard range, 1 turn duration, 2/day.

According to the DMG, players have a Personality score of Intelligence + Charisma + Level, which is reduced by damage you take (the example is a 7th level Fighter who loses 1 point of Personality for every 8 points of damage they take), and while the sword can demand concessions in case of a conflict, only if their Ego exceeds the character's Personality score can they wrest control.

But I wasn't really asking if these things are too powerful or how to handle them; it's more that, by the rules, it seems they should be very common, and that hasn't been my experience, and I was wondering how common they are in other people's games.

 

[Dioltach]

"Intelligent? Well, it's not the sharpest blade in the drawer..."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But I wasn't really asking if these things are too powerful or how to handle them; it's more that, by the rules, it seems they should be very common, and that hasn't been my experience, and I was wondering how common they are in other people's games.

I have been planning introducing my first intelligent weapon in my ongoing play by post game for years. (Soon now, oh yes, my precious ...)

So, not common, although I'm really looking forward to this one making its debut.

 

[niklinna]

So I was doing some research the other day and came upon a bit in the DMG where it claimed 25% of all magic swords have some sort of Intelligence.

Woah! One out of four of those generic +1 longswords cluttering up my campaigns were supposed to have extra powers? I don't recall this being that common with weapons found as treasure in published adventures; is this something that the game designers and most DM's either overlooked or chose to ignore?

In 1e magic swords had a 25% chance of being intelligent, but the table was sequestered in its own section, so unless you actually read that whole section of the book, you'd totally miss it.

 

[James Gasik]

In 1e magic swords had a 25% chance of being intelligent, but the table was sequestered in its own section, so unless you actually read that whole section of the book, you'd totally miss it.

That might explain it. It's an odd thing; on the one hand, intelligent swords were basically patches for the Fighter, to help him compete with spellcasters. On the other hand, a high intelligence/high ego sword is more trouble than it's worth, and having a party cluttered with them would become a pain.

I'm reminded of one of the later Myth books where there's a whole collection of sentient artifacts, the Golden Hoard, who constantly bicker with one another.

 

[niklinna]

That might explain it. It's an odd thing; on the one hand, intelligent swords were basically patches for the Fighter, to help him compete with spellcasters. On the other hand, a high intelligence/high ego sword is more trouble than it's worth, and having a party cluttered with them would become a pain.

I'm reminded of one of the later Myth books where there's a whole collection of sentient artifacts, the Golden Hoard, who constantly bicker with one another.

And in 13th Age, all magic items have at least a rudimentary intelligence and personality.

 

[Bill Zebub]

So I was doing some research the other day and came upon a bit in the DMG where it claimed 25% of all magic swords have some sort of Intelligence.

Woah! One out of four of those generic +1 longswords cluttering up my campaigns were supposed to have extra powers? I don't recall this being that common with weapons found as treasure in published adventures; is this something that the game designers and most DM's either overlooked or chose to ignore?

Maybe you should try actually talking to your swords more, instead of just taking them for granted.

#ToxicWarriorCulture

 

[Mannahnin]

That might explain it. It's an odd thing; on the one hand, intelligent swords were basically patches for the Fighter, to help him compete with spellcasters. On the other hand, a high intelligence/high ego sword is more trouble than it's worth, and having a party cluttered with them would become a pain.

Yes, I think having to track ego vs. damage taken and manage another personality in the party, or likely multiple such swords with personalities at higher levels, discouraged a lot of DMs from using intelligent swords as often as the treasure tables would have them come up.

OD&D was even more full of them. As I recall ALL magic swords have an alignment and personality in the original 1974 rules.

Paul from Wandering DMs did a couple of good posts on his blog a few years back covering how the Ego rules changed over time, and coming up with a simpler implementation of the rules, which I've swiped for my own games.

Ego Through the Ages

Oh my gosh, I’m writing a “Through the Ages” post! You thought this was dead – so did I. I was just prepping for TotalCon and printing some character sheets, and I hav…

www.paulsgameblog.com

Contested Will Probabilities

In follow up to yesterday’s post, I did the work and calculated out the chance to lose control of an intelligent sword in OD&D. Here’s the full spreadsheet if you care to see …

www.paulsgameblog.com

 

[rgard]

That 25% overall could be concentrated in the more powerful swords with very few +1 swords being intelligent.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That 25% overall could be concentrated in the more powerful swords with very few +1 swords being intelligent.

What's the breakdown of 2E swords by plus?

 

[rgard]

What's the breakdown of 2E swords by plus?

in my campaign or yours?

I think it would be the percentage in whatever random magical weapon table is in the DMG. If rolling d100 and 01 to 30 is designated a +1 weapon then I would call that 30%.

 

[James Gasik]

What's the breakdown of 2E swords by plus?

Well, according to this table:

10% of magic swords are cursed, 40% are +1, 20% are +2, 15% are +3, 10% are +4, and only 5% are +5. This is a little off because there are special swords, but the tables only give you a 5% chance of those appearing. Still, if we want 25% of all magic swords to be among the strongest, then 10% of +3, and all of +4 and +5 swords are intelligent.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

if we want 25% of all magic swords to be among the strongest, then 10% of +3, and all of +4 and +5 swords are intelligent.

That's not a terrible way to do it, since the best swords should be special, but by the time you get them, just getting a few more pluses pales next to things like high level magic or getting multiple attacks on lower level foes (did that stick around in 2E, or was that just 1E?).

On the other hand, from a RP standpoint, having a +1 sword with a personality and opinions makes that sword a lot more interesting long-term and it can potentially be a much larger part of the campaign, since it will almost certainly show up much earlier.

 

[James Gasik]

That's not a terrible way to do it, since the best swords should be special, but by the time you get them, just getting a few more pluses pales next to things like high level magic or getting multiple attacks on lower level foes (did that stick around in 2E, or was that just 1E?).

On the other hand, from a RP standpoint, having a +1 sword with a personality and opinions makes that sword a lot more interesting long-term and it can potentially be a much larger part of the campaign, since it will almost certainly show up much earlier.

The multiattack against low HD foes was an optional rule, as I recall in the 2e DMG, but I've never seen it used personally.

The problem with intelligent weapons is it's all random, so most magic swords have an Int of 12 or 13, don't talk, and have minor abilities like detecting evil or secret doors in a short range. So limiting intelligent weapons to the most powerful weapons gets you things like "hey you found a +4 sword that...detects metals and minerals within 5'"...not super amazing, lol.

OTOH, the idea of a 17 intelligence +1 sword with telepathy, the ability to read languages and magical script, with a host of special powers and the special purpose to slay goblins, with the ability to disintegrate them on contact, is highly amusing, but not terrifying practical- at high levels it's more trouble than it's worth, demanding the player use it all the time, and at low levels, it's a menace, lol.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The multiattack against low HD foes was an optional rule, as I recall in the 2e DMG, but I've never seen it used personally.

The problem with intelligent weapons is it's all random, so most magic swords have an Int of 12 or 13, don't talk, and have minor abilities like detecting evil or secret doors in a short range. So limiting intelligent weapons to the most powerful weapons gets you things like "hey you found a +4 sword that...detects metals and minerals within 5'"...not super amazing, lol.

OTOH, the idea of a 17 intelligence +1 sword with telepathy, the ability to read languages and magical script, with a host of special powers and the special purpose to slay goblins, with the ability to disintegrate them on contact, is highly amusing, but not terrifying practical- at high levels it's more trouble than it's worth, demanding the player use it all the time, and at low levels, it's a menace, lol.

Yeah, the tables need to be rejiggered, probably with the lowest level swords more likely to give communicate through empathy (as defined by AD&D) and then progressively more likely to be chatty cathies as they grow more powerful.

Fighting their wielder for control of their body, which is a weird trap option to make such a central part of them, should probably be removed or made exceptionally rare, rather than an issue that comes up on any day ending in a Y.

An intelligent magical item should be an interesting NPC to join the party, not something that will derail a game.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't have intelligent weapons show up all that often but when they do they are often - pun intended - double-edged swords. On the one hand they're often very useful and have handy abilities beyond just being able to make the wielder better at hitting and hurting things; but on the other hand they're nearly always aligned and thus fussy about who can even touch them never mind wield them, and will sometimes try to take over their wielders particularly if the weapon has a special purpose and an opportunity arises to fulfill that purpose.