Interesting comment from a player

[Mystery Man]

ditto.

ditto ditto

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Tonight, the player made a comment that many, perhaps most, dms wouldn't have let that happen, regardless of the dice- the npc wouldn't have fallen for that kind of trick.

I'd let the Bluff Roll stand. But, Bluff vs Sense Motive are not the only skills involved here.

However, a Potion of Longevity isn't a standard potion (iirc), as potions are merely spells in liquid form. The NPC, as a good merchant, SHOULD have cast Detect Magic (and allowed the casting of such) to determine the relative properties of the offered merchandise.

Under Detect Magic, the Potion of Spider Climb would have shown up as Minor (Transmutation), CLEARLY not a Potion of Longevity. A simple Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft check should of told the NPC the PC was pulling a fast one.

Doesn't matter how high the Bluff check is, you can't sell a Cattle Rancher a Dairy Hiefer calling it an Angus Bull. He knows better.

So, they Bluffed the merchant. He belived them. Then he sees irrefutable evidence they are lying. This is a case of got caught Bluffing really well. They're scam artists, really good ones, but just that, scam artists.

He doesn't know what they're trying to sell him, he just knows it isn't what they claim it is.

As I see it 2 options exist for why he'd still go through with the deal.

1. He's an idiot (from a mercantile stand point). He's a normal merchant who just happens to have some Magic Items (at least he's been TOLD they're magic) from somebody who had to default on a loan & offered these 'precious magic items' as partial payment of the debt. The merchant normally deals in grain, spices, or something else & hasn't a clue about magic. With a good bluff check, you could have traded him 'magic beans'.

Of course, this means he has no idea if the magic items he's selling do what he's been told they do. Could be cursed for all he knows.

2. He's a scam artist too. Got some 'hot' or cursed items he needs to off-load in a hurry. Not sure what that potion is, but knows he won't hang for having 'potion X' as opposed to Duke Uberpain's Family Ring of Magical Power. Or once the wearer has used the item to breathe water, they can no longer breathe air. Thus, he's more than willing to allow himself to be 'scammed'

Your right, as a DM I wouldn't let a true 'magic merchant' fall for that dumb trick, probably. He'd not only have to lose the Sense Motive roll, he'd also have to flub a Knowledge (arcana) roll (very badly in this case). Sure, I'd let the dice determine the outcome. If he fails the Sense Motive Roll, followed by a 1 on the Know check, fine. Otherwise he's shutting the deal down.

 

[gizmo33]

If the merchant were 100 years old and the grim reaper were standing in the doorway during the transaction, then I'd allow an unmodified bluff-check vs. sense motive check. Otherwise, I think the circumstances should suggest some desperation on the part of the merchant before he spends so much on a potion from a stranger with no home address. On the other hand, because epic things happen, I'll allow almost anything with a -30 on the roll - at least once a session.

 

[yennico]

Sure, I'd let that stand. (Of course, it would have to be a truly remarkable Bluff roll - the Bluff is pretty hard to believe, and so I'd award the merchant a +10 or even +20 bonus on the Sense Motive roll - per the PHB p.68)

Of course, the characters then have to deal with the consequences of their actions:

1) There's a probable alignment violate here for any Good or Lawful PC - they've just robbed an (assumed) innocent of a hugely valuable item. Certainly, this is an Evil action - hurting others for one's own gain. It's also a Chaotic action, as an expression of personal freedom at the cost of trustworthiness.

2) The merchant obviously didn't Identify the potion they sold him. Did the PC's Identify the ring they bought in turn? Who's to say they didn't get ripped off?

3) The con will eventually be discovered. This then leads to all sorts of fun opportunities. If the merchant was at all reputable, the PCs have just sullied their reputations in the town where the trade took place, and are unlikely to be able to buy any goods and services there except in hard cash, and probably with a hefty mark-up, if at all.

If the merchant was not reputable, of course, he most likely has access to the underworld, and is likely to be sending bounty hunters/assassins/debt collectors after the PCs.

And bear in mind that any merchant who deals in magical rings must have some considerable clout, or else he'd quickly be robbed and/or dead. Frankly, the PCs are likely soon going to be wishing they'd just paid the asking price in the first place.

I would allow the deal but IMC there are always consequences from any action, e.g. consequences which delericho described.

 

[francisca]

What do you say?

I say if you normally handle all sorts of pc/npc social interaction via the skill mechanics, then by all means let it stand. You shouldn't make an exception just because you think the npc got a raw deal.

 

[ARandomGod]

I would allow the deal but IMC there are always consequences from any action, e.g. consequences which delericho described.

I wouldn't have let that happen to a merchant... not a standard one anyhow. I would let it happen to another buyer however. If he wanted to approach a young noble who's looking for something to help his aging father...

Now, the reason I wouldn't let it happen is that magic item merchants always identify items IMC. It's a fairly standard item, actually... they get an item that looks very much like a scale... (like the item the deli people use to weigh your meat). They have you put whatever you're attempting to sell on the plate, and they look at the 'scan' below it. Sure, an item of Analyze Dweomer on command is an expensive item, but these guys are getting a HUGE mark-up. You know they make 50% (edit, 100%) profit on everything they buy? Heck, the smart mages work with them, a mage supplies them something on commission in order to make a very slight profit. Of course, he'll make them a nice identify item.

And they still charge you 100 gold to use it for you, telling you that's the "material component". Magic item merchants are the ultimate swindlers.

But I'd let a bluff like that work on someone who isn't a professional con, and who hasn't taken these precautions into effect.

 

[billd91]

I don't see any reason why I wouldn't allow it. Caveat emptor and all that. If the buyer of the potion of longevity didn't do something to verify that goods, that's his problem. Woe unto the party who pulls that con if they buyer has power resources of his own to bring down on their heads.

That said, there are times in which, as DM fiat, I will not allow some interpersonal skills to work. I'll simply set the DC so high that the PC cannot possibly succeed. This is on a case by case basis. Sometimes, no matter how diplomatic you are, you simply can't convince someone to do what you want them to do. Best you can get is to not have them kill you for trying.

 

[Voadam]

IMC probably no.

Transactions are not roleplayed out for buying stuff we just say things are available to buy and can be sold. I don't want my campaign time to be about this type of interaction detail any more and I don't want to constantly be dealing with scams. My players agree and we've been happy having the game focus on the group story and plots instead of on just one character's interactions in the market.

We've abstracted out the whole item market aspect of the game so we can focus on other stuff and I don't want to drag it back down to time consuming in game levels of detail that I don't find fun anymore.

 

[radferth]

IMC depends on the merchant. If he/she is an experienced magic dealer, then absolutely no deals on items not identified by a source he trusts. Otherwise, roll away. Of couse, there could be later repercusions from scamming the wrong merchant (say one that pay protection money to local thieves guild).

 

[reveal]

IMC, if my players had tried this, here's what would have happened:

1) If it was a merchant they frequented, the merchant would have accepted it but, once he found out later he had been gyped, he would have sought out the PCs somehow and would hardly trust them again.

2) If the merchant was not frequented, he would have cast Detect Magic, or tried to Spellcraft (DC 25) since it was a potion, and been extremely cool with the PCs after that. Depending on the actual value of the potion compared to the claimed value, the merchant would have done anything from "I will not give you a discount" to "Get the hell out of my shop!"