Interesting fact about Dragon SRs.

[BronzeDragon]

I don't know if anyone has talked about this before, but searches didn't come up with any results, so I'll start a fresh topic.

Did people notice that the Spell Resistance (SR) of almost all dragon types is fixed by CR?

Take, for example, CR 20. Excepting the Red and the Brass, all other dragons present a SR of 27. The Red has 26 and the Brass 28. In the case of dragons who do not have a CR 20 representative, the average between the SR of CR 19 and CR 21 dragons of the type in question gives the same answer, 27.

I don't agree with this at all! Although I realize the Magic resistance of 2E worked very differently, I don't agree with this equilibrium between all dragon species in the case of SR when the CR system is used to select opponents.

As an aside, Monster Compedium : Monsters of Faerûn raised the bar a little bit. At CR 20, all the dragons in the book present a SR of 30 (which is, BTW, exactly 45% magic resistance against the typical 20th-level spellcaster [without any penetration feat(s)]).

What do you guys think about this?

P.S.: Went to take a look at my Creature Collection II, and our friend Upper_Krust went against the norm and gave the Slarecian Dragon a SR of 32 at CR 20.

 

[Tiefling]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

 

[Crothian]

So, having SR based on CR for dragons is bad?

Personally I think SR's are low across the board for everything.

 

[Victim]

So, having SR based on CR for dragons is bad?

Personally I think SR's are low across the board for everything.

I thought so too, and then I started playing. Given the duration of fights, even relatively low percentage SR can be problematic because the average only matters in the long run. In a 3 round fight with non-hasted casters, even one miss can be somewhat crippling and more can render a spell slinger impotent.

Of course, I might be somewhat biased because, last session, our characters fought a Balor and needed 18s or 19s to land spells depending on the character. IIRC, one magic missile spell landed, and our wizard spent most of the fight trying to fly away from the demon.

Although most SRs aren't formulaic, almost all of them tend toward the 45 - 65 range for even CR fights. The max SR I've seen is 32 for monsters, which is 45 for casters with spell penetration, which many high level characters would have. Some creatures are odd though.

 

[Grazzt]

There is a similar thread from quite a while ago in the Creature Catalog forums.

Actually if you reverse engineer the dragons in the MM, you can find the pattern/formula they used to convert them from 2e. Once ya find it, it's fairly straightforward and easy to use.

 

[Schmoe]

I don't have a problem with it at all. Heck, even a creature with an SR of 8 (demonically infused medium earth elemental) posed problems to my group of 5th and 6th level characters, as two spells were negated during the fight.

One thing to remember is that not all spellcasters will be single-classed, and for those who aren't, SR is even more effective.

 

[BronzeDragon]

To clarify things a bit, I'll use my own response to a reply posted in the Wizards forum:

My problem is that EVERY dragon is almost exactly the same at a similar CR, negating the differences between species while actual use of the dragons as opponents is concerned.

With the CR system, the recommended procedure is using a monster of a CR appropriate for the party level.

What this means is that a X-Level party, when facing a dragon as its opponent, will ALWAYS face a dragon of the same relative strength, no matter its color or type.

While this may be fine for balance reasons, the differences between dragon species become nullified for practical use.

Players will almost never experience the feeling that a red dragon was "tougher" to defeat than the supposedly puny white dragon they faced before.

That's my gripe.

P.S.: I also do think SR is low across the board, but specially so for dragons. I am DMing a campaign for more than a year now, and the group is currently 15th-Level. SR is basically useless for the monsters, since the Wizard is capable of penetrating it very easily for creatures of a CR equivalent to the party level. But I don't want to turn this into a discussion about this particular fact.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, if players run the numbers, then yeah, the CR 20 Dragon was just as tough as the other CR 20 Dragon. They're both the same challenge rating, so yeah, they're supposed to be the same challenge. Thing is, at the top end of draconic age categories, Red Great Wyrms are tougher than White Great Wyrms. So there's your difference.

Plus, tactics change. If you play both a red and a white the same way (they swoop in from the sky, use breath weapon, make flyby attacks, circle, swoop in, repeat), then yes, the Dragons will get boring. If you instead have the red Dragon living in a lava tube with a molten river and a high-ceilinged cavern he can fly through, it will be different from the white Dragon that lays in ambush under a thin sheet of ice in the middle of a snowy canyon, bursts out to attack the party, then roars to trigger an avalanche to crush them.

It's up to the narrative to make encounters interesting. Yes, unique stats can help inspire DMs, but really, a good DM shouldn't be put off my simple rules. In fact, in my opinion, they should've just had a single Dragon entry, with the same base stats for all ages, and then templates to apply over it to make it a particular color. I prefer simple rules, because it makes it easier to focus on the story, rather than the stats.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Thing is, at the top end of draconic age categories, Red Great Wyrms are tougher than White Great Wyrms. So there's your difference.

The problem is the Red Great Wyrm is a CR 25 creature, while the White Great Wyrm is a CR 20 one.

Unless the DM is a sadistic person (a distinct possibility ), he won't throw a Red Great Wyrm at the same group he was going to throw a White Great Wyrm at.

If he goes by the book, he will give them an Old Red dragon, which will be, and this should be a real shocker, actually slightly WEAKER than the White Great Wyrm, even though they are both CR 20. The only thing the Old Red has an advantage at is the Breath Weapon damage, while basically all other statistics are either in favor of the white or equal.

So, even when the CRs are the same, the challenge is skewed in the wrong direction.

Plus, tactics change. If you play both a red and a white the same way (they swoop in from the sky, use breath weapon, make flyby attacks, circle, swoop in, repeat), then yes, the Dragons will get boring. If you instead have the red Dragon living in a lava tube with a molten river and a high-ceilinged cavern he can fly through, it will be different from the white Dragon that lays in ambush under a thin sheet of ice in the middle of a snowy canyon, bursts out to attack the party, then roars to trigger an avalanche to crush them.

It's up to the narrative to make encounters interesting. Yes, unique stats can help inspire DMs, but really, a good DM shouldn't be put off my simple rules. In fact, in my opinion, they should've just had a single Dragon entry, with the same base stats for all ages, and then templates to apply over it to make it a particular color. I prefer simple rules, because it makes it easier to focus on the story, rather than the stats.

I strongly disagree with the idea of making all dragons statistically the same, then applying templates for flavor, but since that is a matter of opinion, I'll leave it at that. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[DWARF]

What?!! No, lad.....

BronzeDragon, let me get this straight...

You're arguement is that at the same CR, dragons are the same difficulty. But isn't that the point of the CR system? Equal CR's make equal difficulty.

And if you want different dragons, like a red compared to a white, to be tougher, then why not do what RangerWickett says and try fighting similarily AGED dragons and not similarily CR'ed ones.

Using your own words, only a sadistic DM would throw a great wyrm red dragon at the same party as a great wyrm white dragon. And that's BECAUSE Red dragons are tougher! How do you represent this toughness? Up their CR!!! The problem here is you don't get the CR system. If you keep throwing dragons of the same CR at a group, OF COURSE they'll think that they're all the same, they're the same CR!!!

Using CR's for NPC's, you'll find the same thing. Using the basic Dwarf as a monster, you'll find that a level 1 dwarf fighter is CR 1. You'll also find that a level 2 dwarf warrior is CR 1 IIRC. Don't come back and complain that fighters and warriors are the same difficulty at the same CR, that's the point! But if you look at them at similar levels (or ages for dragons), then one will undoubtably be tougher than the other.

The way they make CR's for monsters is that the monsters, when fighting against an average party, will be pretty much the same difficulty overall at the same CR. The red dragon's toughness is represented in the fact that at the same age, a red is tougher than a white. If it's tougher, then it should have a higher CR. And looky-loo, it does.

As for the red being weaker at the same CR as a white, that may be comparing an old red dragon and great wyrm white, but maybe that's because being a great wyrm is supposed to mean they're tough. Try comparing them at similar CR's for other age groups, like young or adult and see what happens. [It's late and I have a Zoology 225 final tomorrow, so I'm not going to look up examples, sorry.]