Interesting implement question

[GorTeX]

Could you cite a page number for this? I need to have concrete rules, and having to specify a use for an object in one of the books would certainly do... I agree that common sense seems to say that this is a loophole that shouldn't work, but in a hard rules situation, I don't have room for interpretations. Thanks.

see page 235 of the PHB: Pact Blade

one of the specials says:

Special: You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using a pact blade as an implement.

(this last part added by me, but re-read the keyword section of the PHB--page 55-56--if you don't believe my answer)
Question: When do you use the pact blade as an implement?
Answer: When the power you are using has the Implement Keyword.

 

[KarinsDad]

Could you cite a page number for this? I need to have concrete rules, and having to specify a use for an object in one of the books would certainly do... I agree that common sense seems to say that this is a loophole that shouldn't work, but in a hard rules situation, I don't have room for interpretations. Thanks.

Page 55 The definition of the weapon keyword

Many martial powers, as well as several divine powers, can be used only if you're wielding a weapon.

Page 117 Sneak Attack

using a weapon from the light blade ... weapon group

This is the main rule that prevents this. This does not state using an implement from that weapon group.

Page 215 Weapon Group

In game terms, some powers and feats work only when you're attacking with a weapon in a specific group

Page 131

A pact blade, a special magic dagger, can also be used as an implement for warlock powers

Just because it can also be used as an implement does not state that it can simultaneously be used as an implement and as a weapon.

An implement is not a weapon.

None of the Warlock Pact powers have the Weapon keyword. Sneak attack requires it and then, only for certain weapon groups.


To my knowledge, there is no rule that explicitly calls this out. It's more of a combination of converse rules that do not explicitly support this use. In other words, a power needs the Weapon keyword in order for a weapon feat (i.e. Sneak Attack/Sneak of Shadows) to be used with it.

 

[lightblade]

What about say a Frost Pactblade? Wintertouched/Lasting frost with warlock powers?

You can't have a frost pactblade... they're different weapons, and right now there's no way to combine two weapon properties.

 

[Krensus]

What if a warlock takes the Rogue paragon Daggermaster? Can they crit their spells using a pact blade on an 18-20?

 

[Gloombunny]

I don't think you can sneak attack on a warlock spell using a pact blade... but I'd allow it anyway. It's fun and doesn't seem unbalanced.

I would not allow the Daggermaster crits to apply to spells, though, because come on.

 

[Krensus]

I don't think you can sneak attack on a warlock spell using a pact blade... but I'd allow it anyway. It's fun and doesn't seem unbalanced.

I would not allow the Daggermaster crits to apply to spells, though, because come on.

Shhhh...just let it happen.