Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

[Desdichado]

One of the primary reasons that D&D and Warhammer Fantasy continue to dominate their respective markets is because of the brand and the world-wide community of players who cling to the game. This is particularly telling in GW's case since their rules are just laughably bad at times.

I think that's ridiculous. White Wolf gave TSR a good scare for a while ten years or so ago, and D&D has firmly regained whatever ground it had lost to them, and then some since. Warmachine and the various clicky games are serious competitors to GW these days.

There's something about being first, but it's not everything you think it is either.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Moogle: I'm talking about video games based on a paper RPG source.

 

[mearls]

Rules heavy games are for gamers. Rules light games are for gamers who are friends.

There's one key issue here that I think you're overlooking.

Only one person has to learn a rules heavy game. You can play D&D without owning a PH, or learning any of the rules, as long as someone else at the table can tell you what's going on.

The same thing is true with a rules light game.

The question becomes, which game is worth the time it takes to study and learn? They both take some amount of time. The more complex game probably takes more time, but it's also more rewarding in that you have more tools in your kit to deal with the game.

IMO, light v. heavy is only an issue in competitive games where every player has to learn the rules to enjoy the game. That isn't the case in RPGs.

(And it's also the case that the posts that I as soon as I make a post that generates lots of discussion, I have a rush of work that keeps me away from various boards!)

 

[Desdichado]

No, only if you use the talk-radio model of discussion does one detail invalidate the entire point.

He is still a big name in the industry. He publishes d20 material. Point still stands. Why do those at the top find it necessary to cast those below in a bad light, especially in such a small market?

No, he's not a big name in the industry really. No, he doesn't publish d20 material to my knowledge. He's not a game designer. He's never published anything like game material. And it's not exactly "one detail" it's the main point of your position.

 

[eyebeams]

I think that's ridiculous. White Wolf gave TSR a good scare for a while ten years or so ago, and D&D has firmly regained whatever ground it had lost to them, and then some since.

It's more accurate to say that TSR gave TSR a good scare. Just as I cannot claim to be an expert marksman because somebody shot themselves in the face, White Wolf cannot claim that it nicked anything from TSR.

Warmachine and the various clicky games are serious competitors to GW these days.

Not really. I doubt Warmachine can touch Warhammer and the clicky games are totally different. WotC itself already tried to succeed with a true head to head competitor for Warhammer and got spanked.

 

[fredramsey]

No, he's not a big name in the industry really. No, he doesn't publish d20 material to my knowledge. He's not a game designer. He's never published anything like game material. And it's not exactly "one detail" it's the main point of your position.

So why did these people have him do their forward?

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?cPath=334_337&products_id=3289&

Sorry, Rush, point still stands.

But, unlike the talk radio model, you are free to believe what you want.

 

[Psion]

Moogle: I'm talking about video games based on a paper RPG source.

So, your complaint is about tabletop RPGs are like video games specifically modeled after tabletop RPGs? Seems like a bit of chicken-and-egg here to me.

 

[buzz]

Buffy (w/ its 256 pages of rules by-the-by, hole in your logic perhaps?)

A gap maybe, but not a hole.

Thing is Buffy isn't 256pp of rules. It's rules, setting info, season 1-5 synopsis, writeups of the major characters, sample archetypes, GM advice, complete sample adventure, guide to Buffyspeak, creatures and villains, conversion notes for Witchcraft, reference sheets, some fiction, and lots of art. C&C is all rules (or far more rules in comparison). Buffy may not be RISUS, but it sure sits a lot closer to it than C&C.

It would seem to me that considering only games such as Buffy (w/ its 256 pages of rules by-the-by, hole in your logic perhaps?) and The Window as being the hallmarks of "rules-liteism" as perhaps a bit too narrow, though again, I don't go in for the rules-medium definition. YMMV.

Well, then what do we call a game that's not RISUS yet not HERO? Using "rules-medium" seems a lot more apt that making "lite" so broad as to encompass all RPGs that are any degree less complex than D&D.

Or, we could always use the other common definition of the terms:

"Lite" = RPGs I like.
"Heavy" = RPGs I don't.

 

[BryonD]

Something I don't get, which may just be my own perspective getting in the way, is why rules-light games are perceived as "Cops & Robbers".A badly designed rules light game can, but nobody's defending badly designed games.

HeroQuest, Sorcerer, The Pool, Primetime Adventures, Dogs in the Vineyard, FATE -- one thing these games have in common is that any conflict at all that comes up can be resolved using the basic mechanic. These conflicts can be interesting and challenging. There's little cause for confusion or debate, except perhaps about difficulty levels (which always have to be decided).

D&D uses a basic mechanic. I don't think anyone is argueing that this makes it rules lite.

If there is a consistent rule for something, say jumping a ditch, then on that issue the game is effectively the same as a rules heavy game. If there isn't, then it is no different than cops and robbers on that issue.

But it does not come down to one issue at a time. The real issue is how often must you make up rules on the fly vs how much do you have to keep up with. Any time you have to make up rules on the fly, then it goes back to whim, which is little more than cops and robbers.

Just having a single mechanic doesn't solve the problem, it just obscures it. If you use a core mechanic to determine how much a character can lift in the absence of a lifting mechanic, then GM whim is still the real controlling factor. Must I roll to lift 10 pounds? Can I roll to try to lift 1,000? Neither of these are ever going to be a problem. But some vague point in between is going to be whim. And that vague area is going to be the area that you actually care about. Automitcs are not interesting, the edge of chance, one way or the other is where the exciting action occurs. Exactly the point where rules lite seems to break down the worst.

In D&D I know if a character can lift 250 lbs or not. If you throw a 50/50 chance at my rules light character, it is just a hand wave to hide the same result as arguing "yes I can" / "no you can't". And, of course if you rule differently the next time then you don't have a consistent game and if you rule the same then you are back to have a rules heavy game where the rules just are not written down. Either way its some degree of fancy cops and robbers.

 

[scadgrad]

I think that's ridiculous. White Wolf gave TSR a good scare for a while ten years or so ago, and D&D has firmly regained whatever ground it had lost to them, and then some since. Warmachine and the various clicky games are serious competitors to GW these days.

There's something about being first, but it's not everything you think it is either.

No, you're right. You still have to maintain the brand and respond to competitors as WotC wisely did by revamping D&D. Hell, Coke changes its packaging on a farily consistant basis too.

But the fact that you can go to just about anywhere in the world and find players who play either Warhammer of some stripe or D&D is a very powerful thing and is part and parcel of the brand itself. You may think it's ridiculous, but the brand is a very powerful thing and being the first to devlop and establish a market is a crucial element of being succesful in a long-term enterprise. It may be silly, and certainly there have been challengers, but the fact remains that in both of those examples those games sit on top of the field that they virtually invented: Role Playing games and Fantasy Miniature Wargames.

Whether or not they load up their games with more and more complexity doesn't really seem to have nearly as much to do with it.