Internally logical magic systems?

[Nagol]

What's the difference between a fireball and gravity? Why does gravity exist? Where does it come from? Is there an infinite amount? Some things that don't make sense are merely beyond our level of comprehension and knowledge.

D&D has the Weave. It may not make sense to us, but "we see through a glass, darkly."

Since magic as a a force is manipulatable and exploitable, it is less like gravity and more like electricity. How does one generate it? We have answers. If we use it, does it replenish? We have answers. Can we measure how much there is at a particular spot? Yes. Can we convert to other energy types like light, heat, or motion? Yes, here's how, and what we can expect the outcome to be.

Most games systems don't try to provide any framework and thus anything is possible if one can persuade the GM.

I find such frameworks,, in addition to help world-build and keep the table on the same part wrt expectations, can also lead to interesting adventures and plots.

 

[DwarfHammer]

Magic could have an underlying principle and the wizards just don’t know it. There may be many competing theories to what it is and how it works. But no one knows for sure.

 

[Shiroiken]

In the AEG system for Legend of the Five Rings, most magic was the acts on the elemental kami (spirits) that a shugenja (wizard/priest) would have to cajole into performing a service (the spell). It was a fairly integral concept to the setting, which made it feel fairly unique. There were other magic systems in the world, but those were evil magic of outsiders (most of which were left unexplained).

 

[Nagol]

Magic could have an underlying principle and the wizards just don’t know it. There may be many competing theories to what it is and how it works. But no one knows for sure.

Sure! But most games don't present any or even suggest the GM should give it a thought.

And you know what happens when there are competing theories? Someone tries to figure out if any are true usually by discovering where one or more are false.

I built an underlying magical framework for 1E 27 years ago. Players have very occasionally mused about it, but no one has sought it out. It still has informed adventure design. spell lists, and world development in ways far more consistent than "a wizard did it; don't think about it" which appears to be a typical rationale in adventures.

 

[DwarfHammer]

Sure! But most games don't present any or even suggest the GM should give it a thought.

And you know what happens when there are competing theories? Someone tries to figure out if any are true usually by discovering where one or more are false.

I built an underlying magical framework for 1E 27 years ago. Players have very occasionally mused about it, but no one has sought it out. It still has informed adventure design. spell lists, and world development in ways far more consistent than "a wizard did it; don't think about it" which appears to be a typical rationale in adventures.

Absolutely. Love to see the ideas players have. It’s not needed. But it can give real depth to a setting. Both ways

 

[Guest 6801328]

Hmm. Thanks for all the responses, but I guess I didn't communicate the ask well.

It's not a realism issue, or that if I just understood the underlying mechanism ("it's magic!") it would all be ok. It's that I want a magic system with restrictions, preferably tied narratively to that underlying mechanism in a consistent way. Like the example in Lexicon.

Instead of "I can't do that because I don't know the spell. Yet." I want "I can't do that because that's not how magic works."

So maybe it's a magic system based on nature spirits. You can either persuade or enslave spirits, and the type of spirit determines what can be done. But basically there are animal and plant spirits. So no fireballs. Maybe necromancy is related to "human spirits". Water spirits? Weather/sky spirits? (Lighting bolts?). Maybe. I dunno...typing as I think.

Alternately, same structure but elementals. So fireballs (if that's the kind of elemental you have), but no entangle or spider climb.

I could even see one game with both categories, elementals and nature spirits, with totally different mechanics and spells. But you don't get to have one character who does both.

So part of it is that I don't like when one character can do so many totally unrelated things. But it's more than that, because the more of these you layered on ("ok, spirits and elementals AND patrons...") the less it would appeal to me. In the same way that I think Tieflings are cool. And Tabaxi are cool. And Half-ogres are cool. And gnomes are....well, ok, not gnomes. But Tieflings and Elves and Halflings and Tabaxi and Drow and Half-ogres and everything else all in the same game just lacks any kind of coherence. It's kitchen sink gaming.

 

[Nagol]

Based on the new information, drop the top two and add Elric/Strombringer in their place.

There, all magic items are bound demons and spells are really pacts with incredibly powerful beings.

Hero/GURPS can still do it (and it would be easier to set up there than a kitchen sink style magic).

Fantasy Wargaming has specialists of different types, but the range of magic is probably too great.

 

[Myth Master]

That's the first rpg I've ever heard of with a magic system that resembles real world medieval beliefs.

FW magic is very fiddly, but a good bit of that can be defrayed by keeping a copy of Astrology magazine (or similar) to hand. These have the relevant transits (astrological correspondents) and all planetary positions for the month in them.
It is too great a resource not to use to facilitate verisimilitude with real world medieval (and Renaissance) astrological practices and beliefs. Such a rich vein to mine, as astrology also affected the practice of blood letting to balance humors and finding the most efficacious times for surgeries in the period. The Theory of Humors (NOT merely a hypothesis to the people of the period) ties directly into astrological beliefs and practices, as well, and dietary habits and best practices for maintaining optimum health. Great stuff!
Nonetheless it may still be considered overly crunchy by some. YMMV

Cheers!

 

[HarbingerX]

It's kitchen sink gaming.

D&D has always been kitchen sink gaming. You can fit a lot of different settings and styles into the D&D framework. The downside is if you want a more coherent setting, then you'll have to put in work to make it so, and convince your players to accept it.

As for magic rules. I go with the Vancian approach, but that's because I'm old-school. Wizards imprint rituals into their minds which when unleashed using special words and gestures allow the caster to manipulate reality itself.

If you can manipulate reality, then you can pretty much cause any effect, from charm, evocations, summonings, etc. The greater the reality change, to greater skill and power required from the caster.

 

[Lanefan]

Instead of "I can't do that because I don't know the spell. Yet." I want "I can't do that because that's not how magic works."

Or even "that's not how magic works for me."

So maybe it's a magic system based on nature spirits. You can either persuade or enslave spirits, and the type of spirit determines what can be done. But basically there are animal and plant spirits. So no fireballs. Maybe necromancy is related to "human spirits". Water spirits? Weather/sky spirits? (Lighting bolts?). Maybe. I dunno...typing as I think.

Alternately, same structure but elementals. So fireballs (if that's the kind of elemental you have), but no entangle or spider climb.

I could even see one game with both categories, elementals and nature spirits, with totally different mechanics and spells. But you don't get to have one character who does both.

So part of it is that I don't like when one character can do so many totally unrelated things. But it's more than that, because the more of these you layered on ("ok, spirits and elementals AND patrons...") the less it would appeal to me. In the same way that I think Tieflings are cool. And Tabaxi are cool. And Half-ogres are cool. And gnomes are....well, ok, not gnomes. But Tieflings and Elves and Halflings and Tabaxi and Drow and Half-ogres and everything else all in the same game just lacks any kind of coherence. It's kitchen sink gaming.

So reading between the lines a bit here, it almost looks like you're seeking to severely whack the length of any one PC caster's spell list, while maybe making each PC's list a) unique and b) tied to a theme?

If yes, I can appreciate the sentiment. Puts you in for a lot of work, though.