Interresting thing about medieval coins I just read

[Dogbrain]

Like I said in my initial post, something that was stated in Dragon magazine in the early 80's, then reprinted in a "Best of Dragon" anthology. Number 4 or 5 I believe. The only similarity I see is that they use copper, silver, and gold coins. Don't know why electrum was ever used. Platinum was apparently a logical progression, especially with how valuable it was in the early 80's.

Copper, silver, gold. Gee, ONLY THE ROMANS EVER USED THAT IN ALL OF HISTORY??????

In 15th-century Europe, a copper/silver/gold system could be found in Spain and France, although Spain claimed to use "billon" rather than strict copper. By the 16th century, even England had started to resorting to copper, although these were generally "licensed" to private contractors to mint. The Romans, on the other hand avoided the use of copper, and used bronze, which does not appear in any AD&D or D&D official coin system.

So, let's see, we have the 1st edition AD&D coins, which are ten to the pound (not typical of the Roman system or any system at all). Widespread use of copper for the smallest denomination (not actually seen until the Renaissance--the Romans used bronze).

 

[ssampier]

Treasure in D&D

While I appreciate the history of this thread, keep in mind that any treasure that a PC can't carry isn't really treasure. That makes for an interesting game where the coins weigh so much they can't pack it home with them (making them wonder why they bothered to kill the dragon afterall).

BTW, would it be possible to have coins that are plated in mithril?

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Those coins and gems would hardly be a burden at all, compared to the rest; 800 coins would only weigh 2 kg or so (at 2.5 g each) -- less than five pounds.

A 100' rope, on the other hand, might weigh 30, 40, or 50 pounds.

And a week's food is about all you can carry. (Historically, a soldier has been expected to march with eight days' rations.)

Actually, that is not the rope my players ask about and what I see most common. I get the idea that, like in the real world, rope used by individuals who need strength and portability was always silk rope. 100' of silk rope is nowhere near 30lbs.

from http://www.bonebed.com/press/articles/climbing/rope.htm

Rope Weight
Ever wonder just how much that 50 meter (55 yard) rope every character in your party has been carting around weighs? Short of going out and using a scale, here are a couple of numbers to play around with. The average 10.5mm (~1/2 inch) climbing rope weighs around 75g/m (~0.15 pounds/yard). This means that a 50 meter (55 yard) length rope has a total weight of 3.75kg (8 1/4 pounds).

*****

also, while the strength of rope has grown, the average weight has not. Ask a mountain climber how much rope he carries with him and how much it weighs. People who think rope weighs a lot is usually thinking about straw or course hemp rope, which is actually much weaker than the rope listed in the phb.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Excellent idea, Brad/cignus_pfaccari. Ars Magica has the notion of vis (Latin for power), pure magical energy that you can seek out or trade. Another notion is to go in the opposite direction -- there's no way to provide magic directly via gold; you need to find specific magical ingredients (pixie dust, dragon blood, etc.). The difficulty of acquiring those ingredients roughly corresponds to the gold-piece cost in the core rules.

The reason I started to think of that was a discussion my group had about how Trap the Soul mystically knew how much GP value a diamond was worth. ("So, if I pay Bob 1000 gp for this diamond that would normally be valued at 100 gp, does this mean it's now worth 1000 gp?") Of course, this is where you get to talking about scarcity, and whether or not the Dwarven gods are seeding the land with more kimberlite deposits as diamonds are used up in magic.

But, this can be construed to mean that there's an objective level of value used in magic that does not change based on perception. This would be worth something more than just its GP value, as it'd be a VERY hard currency (sure, exchange rates might change, but one charm will turn into one gold piece of magical energy, regardless of what the Market thinks it's worth; it reminds me of a joke about NYC Subway tokens!). Granted, I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be in a game, since I imagine very few people bring economics into play other than on very gross levels, but in any realistic society, these would probably be very useful.

Since it's obviously magic-based, we'll use some sort of durable medium that can harbor this spell energy...let's say a tiny steel disc or something. Heck, maybe even something that's ordinarily worthless, but still durable. Maybe some sort of soft stone that won't break easily? For ease of transport, maybe the amount of charms held by a token will be not just related to the mass of the token, but have some sort of geometric relationship?

Brad

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

So? And? Just how does that differ from historical accounting? Indeed, during much of English history, even though purchases were made and recorded in pounds, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS A POUND COIN!!! The pound was a unit of VALUE not a unit of currency. England also used the "mark" as a unit of money but never had a "mark" coin, as far as I know. Money is not identical to currency.

Hrm. I wonder...didn't the British, until recently, go through all forms of their money? Like, in change, "two pounds, four shillings, and three pence"?

Brad

 

[tarchon]

Copper, silver, gold. Gee, ONLY THE ROMANS EVER USED THAT IN ALL OF HISTORY??????

In 15th-century Europe, a copper/silver/gold system could be found in Spain and France, although Spain claimed to use "billon" rather than strict copper. By the 16th century, even England had started to resorting to copper, although these were generally "licensed" to private contractors to mint. The Romans, on the other hand avoided the use of copper, and used bronze, which does not appear in any AD&D or D&D official coin system.

So, let's see, we have the 1st edition AD&D coins, which are ten to the pound (not typical of the Roman system or any system at all). Widespread use of copper for the smallest denomination (not actually seen until the Renaissance--the Romans used bronze).

Early Roman aera signata were sometimes copper, or as pure as copper usually got. Niggling over bronze vs. copper is pretty pointless though. Rather obviously, when most people talk about copper coins, they mean coins that are various copper alloys, since pure copper pretty much sucks as a coin metal, and it's not really all that easy or particularly desirable to make truly pure copper anyway. The Romans indifferently used the term "aes" for copper and bronze, so it clearly was not a distinction they dwelled upon much. Also, billon was used in late debased antoniniani. It's actually not that bad of a coin metal - I really like the look of it better than silver.
Re the coin weights - some early Republican coinage commonly came in issues that were as heavy 10 to the (modern US) pound or more (http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/roman_aes_grave.html), though their actual denomination system was based on twelfths, as were most early Roman weights and measures. The Byzantine follis also pushed into 1/20s of a pound at one time. I've got one crappy example - you could just about kill a guy with it. While I would agree that the AD&D coin system is not strictly based on the Roman system (certainly not the decimal aspect), it would make sense that the AD&D coin weights were based on the aes grave as a rough yardstick. It's hard to think of any other historical coinange that could have inspired someone to take 1/10 lb. as a typical ancient coin weight.

 

[tarchon]

No. That was NOT the usual way things were done. Such practice may have been done in times of instability or raging fiscal irresponsibility, but that was certainly not the usual practice.

Gosh, you're such an authority on coins and Roman history that this syllogism based on the premise that ancient monetary systems were commonly well managed couldn't possibly be flawed.

 

[tarchon]

Oh, and for whoever was asking about the electrum pieces, there were occasionally some ancient electrum coinages. Not very common, but it happened. Just as an odd historical footnote, the first coins/stamped ingots, made in Lydia, were of a naturally occurring electrum alloy.

 

[Khayman]

Gosh, you're such an authority on coins and Roman history that this syllogism based on the premise that ancient monetary systems were commonly well managed couldn't possibly be flawed.

Thank you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let's go with a proper D&D currency system.

A brass bit is worth five iron drabs.
A bronze zee is worth ten bits, or fifty drabs.
Five zees make a copper common.
A silver noble is the equivalent of four commons, twenty zees, two hundred bits, or a thousand drabs.
An electrum lucky is worth five nobles.
A gold orb is ten luckies.
A platinum plate is worth an orb plus a lucky, or the equivalent of fifty-five thousand drabs.

-Hyp.