Interrupting a spell impossible w/Core rules?

[DrSpunj]

One of my players has been disenchanted with 3E's handling of spell interruption since day #1. Since he DM's one of our group's campaigns, in his world he has house ruled Readied Actions only "cost" a MEA (Edit: I was corrected by ouini, another player in our group, down below that the house rule actually allows you to Ready a Move as a MEA, not Ready a Standard action as a MEA) so that someone standing next to a caster can not only swing at them, but is also able to ready an attack to interrupt the spellcaster if they try to cast a spell.

This gives the "disrupter" (even at 1st level) two possible attacks per round, but he made this change because under core rules it is very difficult for a typical medium-armored fighter to interrupt a spellcaster's spell. If the spellcaster is smart and chooses options #3 and #4 below, even if the fighter readies an action he is given no chance to interrupt the spell.

This player/DM is very frustrated/upset by the fact that the fighter gives up his attack to ready an action (under core rules) and then more often than not isn't even rewarded when the mage starts casting a spell (because the fighter is often powerless to stop it, even with a readied action, if the mage is smart about his movements).

To illustrate the problem, assume both the fighter and mage below are human. These are pulled from the NPC tables in the DMG, which gives the fighter splint mail, but since that's too expensive for a typical first level character I'll assume scale mail.

If the medium-armored fighter is toe-to-toe with a mage and has readied an action "to attack the mage if he starts casting a spell" (I got this directly from the FAQ pgs 28-33, which covers this topic in several ways but doesn't address the problem with the core rules) the mage can do several things:

1) Cast Defensively which (if successful) would allow his spell to go off without inducing an AoO but would trigger the fighter's readied action giving the fighter a chance to interrupt the spell. If his readied attack hits, it forces the mage to make a Concentration check.

2) Take a 5' step back and try to cast, triggering the fighter's readied action and giving the fighter a chance to interrupt the spell. If his readied attack hits, it forces the mage to make a Concentration check.

3) Moves 30' away and starts casting a spell. The mage induces an AoO by moving and doing something else but any damage from this AoO is not done *during* the casting of the spell therefore the mage can cast with no chance of failure. Next round the fighter can charge attack and get himself next to the mage again, but he has no chance to interrupt any of the mage's spells if the mage plays it smart and keeps moving away and then casting.

4) Double moves (hopefully around an obstacle) outpacing the medium-armored fighter (who has to run to catch up and can only do so in a straight line) who can't really ever catch up to the mage. The mage alternates his turns between casting with a move and double moving. If there is an obstacle for him to run around (which prevents a straight line the fighter needs to have to run and catch up) the fighter will not be able to catch/interrupt the mage again.

Does anyone have any other possibilities that don't paint such a bleak picture for the disrupter?

Am I incorrect about something I've outlined here that helps the disrupter?

Has anyone else encountered this and house ruled something to help fix it?

Thanks for all thoughts/analysis.

DrSpunj

 

[Macbrea]

By the way you can trip as an AoO. That might help the fighter stop that silly mage in situation #3.

You could also initiate a grapple as an AoO.

The real cure to the guy that keeps running away from you is pull out a ranged weapon and do the same as you were doing prior to that. Your shot will go off as he starts his spell. This of course won't disrupt the wizard but what the heck.

 

[Lord Ben]

Use the AO to grapple, trip, etc instead of damage. That will prevent him from leaving very effectively.

Wear light armor - sometimes the movement is worth the lower AC. If you have 12 dex this might not work.

Wait around the corner for the wizard, that works too.

Getting an AO isn't bad, wizards don't have many HP. Fair trade off. Also forcing the wizard to cast every other round isn't bad either, decent move.

If you have the Kalamar feats take sprint for the +10ft during combat.

 

[Lord Ben]

The real cure to the guy that keeps running away from you is pull out a ranged weapon and do the same as you were doing prior to that. Your shot will go off as he starts his spell. This of course won't disrupt the wizard but what the heck.

Shooting him with an arrow as he's casting will still interupt it. 10 + damage dealt + spell level. So if it's a 1st level spell that's DC12-19 Not bad for 1st level.

 

[Caliban]

One of my players has been disenchanted with 3E's handling of spell interruption since day #1. Since he DM's one of our group's campaigns, in his world he has house ruled Readied Actions only "cost" a MEA so that someone standing next to a caster can not only swing at them, but is also able to ready an attack to interrupt the spellcaster if they try to cast a spell.

Seems pretty overpowered. You could use this against anyone, not just spellcasters, and get two attacks per round.

This gives the "disrupter" (even at 1st level) two possible attacks per round, but he made this change because under core rules it is very difficult for a typical medium-armored fighter to interrupt a spellcaster's spell. If the spellcaster is smart and chooses options #3 and #4 below, even if the fighter readies an action he is given no chance to interrupt the spell.

This player/DM is very frustrated/upset by the fact that the fighter gives up his attack to ready an action (under core rules) and then more often than not isn't even rewarded when the mage starts casting a spell (because the fighter is often powerless to stop it, even with a readied action, if the mage is smart about his movements).

I it's really not that easy for a mage to escape a readied action.

To illustrate the problem, assume both the fighter and mage below are human. These are pulled from the NPC tables in the DMG, which gives the fighter splint mail, but since that's too expensive for a typical first level character I'll assume scale mail.

If the medium-armored fighter is toe-to-toe with a mage and has readied an action "to attack the mage if he starts casting a spell" (I got this directly from the FAQ pgs 28-33, which covers this topic in several ways but doesn't address the problem with the core rules) the mage can do several things:

1) Cast Defensively which (if successful) would allow his spell to go off without inducing an AoO but would trigger the fighter's readied action giving the fighter a chance to interrupt the spell. If his readied attack hits, it forces the mage to make a Concentration check.

Correct.

2) Take a 5' step back and try to cast, triggering the fighter's readied action and giving the fighter a chance to interrupt the spell. If his readied attack hits, it forces the mage to make a Concentration check.

Correct.

3) Moves 30' away and starts casting a spell. The mage induces an AoO by moving and doing something else but any damage from this AoO is not done *during* the casting of the spell therefore the mage can cast with no chance of failure. Next round the fighter can charge attack and get himself next to the mage again, but he has no chance to interrupt any of the mage's spells if the mage plays it smart and keeps moving away and then casting.

Not quite. The mage will trigger an AoO and possibly take damage (which most spellcasters can ill-afford), but they will also trigger the Readied Action. If the fighter didn't move before making the Ready Action, they can still do a Partial Charge with their Readied Action.

4) Double moves (hopefully around an obstacle) outpacing the medium-armored fighter (who has to run to catch up and can only do so in a straight line) who can't really ever catch up to the mage. The mage alternates his turns between casting with a move and double moving. If there is an obstacle for him to run around (which prevents a straight line the fighter needs to have to run and catch up) the fighter will not be able to catch/interrupt the mage again.

At this point the fighter should either concentrate on just killing the spellcaster or switch to missile weapons.

In one-on-one battles this can be an effective tactic for the wizard, but it still leaves them vulnerable on the round they actually cast a spell (because they can only do a single move after that, and the fighter can catch up and attack them).

You cannot always prevent a spellcaster from casting, any more than you can always prevent a fighter from attacking. A fighter can make life difficult for a spellcaster, but they shouldn't be able to completely shut them down with a simple readied action.

Also, reducing the enemy spellcaster to only casting spells every other round and driving them further and further from their companions can be a very effective tactic in and of itself.

Has anyone else encountered this and house ruled something to help fix it?

DrSpunj

I don't really think it needs to be "fixed". In general, ranged attacks are more effective for suppressing a spellcaster than melee attacks, unless you are in an enclosed area where they can't move away from you easily.

 

[mikebr99]

3) Moves 30' away and starts casting a spell. The mage induces an AoO by moving and doing something else but any damage from this AoO is not done *during* the casting of the spell therefore the mage can cast with no chance of failure. Next round the fighter can charge attack and get himself next to the mage again, but he has no chance to interrupt any of the mage's spells if the mage plays it smart and keeps moving away and then casting.

The Fighter has 'readied' to attack if the mage starts to cast...
The Mage provokes an AoO from moving out of the fighter's threat range, then starts his spell which triggers the Fighter's action, and he charges, or whatever move & attack option will get him there and attack in the same round during the casting of the spell.

So this Mage has taken an AoO from the movement and a readied attack also... make his concentration check... and look on the mage's sheet to see if he has any HPs left...

 

[Dr. Zoom]

The only problem with the partial charge is that the fighter he described is wearing medium armor which reduces the fighter's speed to 20. The spellcaster moved 30 feet, so a readied partial charge will not get the fighter far enough to make the attack. Now a barbarian...

 

[Dr_Rictus]

The real question is, why is the fighter trying to interrupt the spell in the first place, when he could just grapple the caster to keep him from casting in the first place, and still get his multiple attacks (albeit with a dagger or something)? Unless, that is, the caster has support from a rogue and the fighter doesn't want to take the sneak attacks for being in a grapple.

 

[apsuman]

As for number 3, where the mage runs away, I think you just described the perfect reason for the fighter to have the quick draw feat.

Mage runs, Fighter takes his AoO, then the mage casts triggering the Readied Action, and the fighter drops his sword and whips out his bow...

So he gets to keep his armor and take his attack.

If he is level 6 or above, then he gets to shoot multiple arrows at the silly silly mage.

g!

 

[0-hr]

If he is level 6 or above, then he gets to shoot multiple arrows at the silly silly mage.

Readied action = partial action = 1 shot with bow