Intimidate variant

[coyote6]

Somebody in my group suggested this, and I thought I'd see what people thought about it.

Change the Intimidate skill so that both the user and target of the skill add their base attack bonus to the opposed skill check.

Would that make Intimidation too easy for fighter-types? Given that the target already gets to add their HD/level, and would also get to add their BAB, it seems like a fairly balanced change that would let fighters scare weaker combatants slightly more easily.

Comments?

 

[Trainz]

Somebody in my group suggested this, and I thought I'd see what people thought about it.

Change the Intimidate skill so that both the user and target of the skill add their base attack bonus to the opposed skill check.

Would that make Intimidation too easy for fighter-types? Given that the target already gets to add their HD/level, and would also get to add their BAB, it seems like a fairly balanced change that would let fighters scare weaker combatants slightly more easily.

Comments?

IMHO, that suggestion doesn't work. Intimidate is a psychological effect, yes ?

The class with the lowest willpower is the fighter. One of the classes with the highest willpower is the wizard. With your suggestion, it totally flips this rationale around. It is just not consistent.

 

[Talon5]

There are some holes int eh D20 skills

IMHO, that suggestion doesn't work. Intimidate is a psychological effect, yes ?

The class with the lowest willpower is the fighter. One of the classes with the highest willpower is the wizard. With your suggestion, it totally flips this rationale around. It is just not consistent.

Part of the "arguement" is that- I have a Wizard Alran he has a 16 Cha, and started out as a shop wizard, out of shape, scared of his own shadow in a shadowy cavern, hes a geek, not really concerned about adventuring, etc. His Intimidation skill +3.

Pell started with a cha 10 and no points in the skill so that kicks him to a skill of +0. Pell has a 20 Str, Half Orc, carries a Great Sword called Blood Dancer, goes into fits of rages, fears little that doesn't require a Will save, etc.

Pell could knock Alran out with a single punch and not roll max damage at 1st lvl.

Who is afraid of whom on an average roll on a d20? Role playing Alran feared Pell, the Player that Played Pell only rolled one Intimidation skill against Alran, and all the Players laughed about the result, but I played it out.

 

[hong]

The class with the lowest willpower is the fighter. One of the classes with the highest willpower is the wizard. With your suggestion, it totally flips this rationale around. It is just not consistent.

The class with the highest WILL SAVE is the wizard, and the converse for the fighter. A Will save represents your ability to withstand magical and/or extraordinary effects on your psyche (and sometimes your body as well); hence charm and hold spells have a Will save, as does a dragon's fear aura. That's a long way from "willpower" as such, by which I assume you mean the ability to resist any random mental effect. I certainly see no reason for wizards to be better able to withstand torture than fighters, for instance.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Okay, then, why not add BAB and base Will save to the check. All the wizards and barbarians are happy now.



Dave

 

[Trainz]

The class with the highest WILL SAVE is the wizard, and the converse for the fighter. A Will save represents your ability to withstand magical and/or extraordinary effects on your psyche (and sometimes your body as well); hence charm and hold spells have a Will save, as does a dragon's fear aura. That's a long way from "willpower" as such, by which I assume you mean the ability to resist any random mental effect. I certainly see no reason for wizards to be better able to withstand torture than fighters, for instance.

Intimidate is all about fear.

The right save to resist fear (when there's one) is always Will.

Thus, Wizzies have better willpower than goons.

I fighter might be better at withstanding torture (more hit points and Con and Fort), and the wizzy might croak sooner under torture, but he might have the toughest mental resistance and not reveal info. The fighter might take it and take it but say "OK !OK !" when he's down to 12 HP's, where the wizard who makes the conscious decision that the info is more valuable than his life, will scream like a little girl but stay determined to not say anything.

NOW... what has to be determined here is how physical pain and mental resistance are related. That is the gist of the point you raise Hong. This I don't know yet.

But the only measure of willpower in the game is the Will save: Wizzies, Monks and Clerics (ESPECIALLY clerics with their high Wis) clearly win.

 

[Talon5]

The idea about using BAB to increase the indimidation factor of a person or critter is to allow big nasties to scare characters.

This would allow a 20th lvl fighter to actually look imposing, thou he would still pee himself if he saw a really scary rogue, but that's for another thread.

For those of you thinking that I play a lot of fighters- I don't, I usually play the cleric, or the wizard. I have one ranger/Fighter/Deepwood Sniper that I feel should be imposing, but witht he way the game is....

No my thought is that a book worm should be scared of a man that makes a living cutting people in half- sure the wiz can do a lot but without the big bad fighter, well....

Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, and your time.

 

[Victim]

Intimidation isn't just about fear. It's about generating and using fear to get a specific desired response.

Why should the wizard be scared of a man who makes a living cutting people in half? He can crush a fighter's will. Compared to Alran, Pell is a stupid fool, with barely the wit to walk and breath. In terms of threatening others, a wizard can threaten physical violence via spell attacks, as well as more esoteric threats. Pell probably can't rip out some guy's soul and then give it to demons for 1000s of years of torture, or bind it to eternal servitude powering some magic trinket. Alran's claims to be magically warned of any lies or treachery might be a bit more credible given his magical skills. Even if we're talking about a high CHA guy with no magic, he could effectively threaten all kinds of social trouble. If the dumb brute gets uppity, you set the guard on him. But if you don't take Elder Bob's proposal seriously, maybe he makes some claim to you land, or gets you involved in some trouble and then sets the watch on you.

In other words, a vast amount of intrinsic power is justly as likely contained in the fat book worm as the hulking warrior. All other things equal, I don't see why a 20th level fighter would have +10 when compared to a wizard in terms of effective scariness.

However, in the grand scheme of things, Alran's +3 is crap. If either character wants to be intimidating, they should buy the skill. It's not like Barbarians and Fighters don't get the skill. A barbarian who doesn't dump CHA and puts points in the skill will make that +3 look like nothing. A guy who cross classes the skill will quickly pass that +3. A guy who suddenly wants to be intimidating out of the blue has a skill item made and gets +5. He still beats the +3. If you want a guy to be imposing, make them that way.

 

[Talon5]

Thank you, Victim, that was very insightful.

As it so happens my description was based on 1st lvl Alran and Pell- so the wripping of the soul and all that would have to wait until a later level.

The thought is still out there.

When we first started the Company of the Sparrow campaign we had yet to house rule that Indimidation was a fighter or barbarian skill.

When 3.5e came out it was one of the official things from the new rules that we adapted, however we disliked about 80% of the changes in 3.5 and stayed on w/3.0e- which we have put a lot of house rules into. Presently we have been working on what to house rule, what to bring from 3.5e and what to keep from 3.0e, that is where this came from. We are seeking help because we know we don't know it all.

FWIW- Pell's flame was extingished at 9th lvl, he had an Intimidation of +7, lower then what I would have thought Pell should have. Alran- while no longer the plump shop wizard is quite the power house at 10th, he seems not to concerned with being intimidating.

 

[A'koss]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that after a certain point in a character's career - intimidation is just not going to be effective. I find it hard to believe that a 20th level adventurer, who's made his career butchering countless nameless horrors, is going to flinch at anything short of an angry god. The check should be against something like 5x the target's level IMO...

A'koss.