D&D 4E Introducing 4eTurnTracker!

[4eTurnTracker]

I have posted 4eTurnTracker 1.5.02 to fix some problems with how Healing Surges are handled in the Conditions and Effects dialog: Update 1.5.02 handles Healing Surges better.

The update also includes a few other minor bug fixes.

 

[4eTurnTracker]

I would just like to mention to those watching this post:

Although I will continue to announce major versions (and most other versions) on EN world, if you use the program then consider following 4eTurnTracker on Twitter or Facebook.

That way you will hear about bugs and updates as soon as possible.

You see, I don't do much testing before a release

The problem is, good QA (Quality Assurance), is very time consuming. Instead I try hard to get a bug fix release out quickly.

Case in point: release 1.5.03, fixes a bug in 1.5.02 that crashes the program if you select "Any Monster" from the Origin popup in the Conditions and Effects dialog. *sigh*

 

[Locutus Zero]

I've been playing with this and am planning to switch over to it going forward. It's a very comprehensive program. Thanks for developing it.

My biggest concern was that it shows the players how much damage monsters have taken. This is not considered player knowledge in our games. I think I saw that on your list of possible future improvements (an option to turn damage readouts on or off). I opened up the exe in a hex editor and found where monster damage is displayed to the players and replaced it with spaces, so that's fixed in the mean time.

 

[bms]

new version is great

Hi Paul,

I just used the new version last night, and I was impressed by a lot of the changes. Sorry I disappeared after offering to give feedback a few months ago. I got married and then went traveling for 2 months. A bit busy!

In any case, I've had lots of stuff to pass on to you, so this is a bit long. Hope it's useful and not too overwhelming.

First, some comments and the reasoning behind them:
1. The accrued damage to monsters is a big problem for me. I'm the kind of DM that will extend a fight by applying less damage than what the PCs inflict if I realize that I've underestimated them, or vice versa, apply extra damage if they're in over their heads. With the damage tracked this way I can't do it.
1b. Same issue, 2nd reason: PCs fighting monster with "radiant vulnerable 10" last night, and when paladin hits for 17 I logged 27 damage. Boom, they know exactly the vulnerability. I would normally drop hints but not be so exact.


2. I love the shortcut where I click on the health bar and I get an automatic focus on the numeric input box at the top. It would be great if "enter" would equate to the "hit" button. Seems fair to say that at least 75% of the inputs here will be damage applied (probably more).

3. I liked that I could use a monster's rechargable power and have it grey/lined out. I did find a bug once where no matter how I clicked on it, it would not great out. Not sure why.


Finally, as a player and user, I have a lot of respect for the functionality that you've got in the conditions/effects (c/e) page, but as a UI-guy, I have a lot of thoughts and suggestions I'd like to drop. I feel a bit awkward on this, since I'm going to go to town on this a little bit. Also, very little of this would change functionality, it's all about lowering the learning curve and mostly about making it faster to use.

4a: I found myself using the new text-based conditions box exclusively (thank you!). I can type 'prone', 'stunned' or 'dazed' faster than I can select them with a mouse. I find my biggest interface complaint is the extensive mouse-clicking on the conditions/effects (C/E) page. I suspect that your primary user base is going to be geeky computer-types, and all the geeks I know will tab/type their way around an application as much as they can. In my case, I already know that to enter a dazed condition until save, I get focus on the custom box, and I type "dazed" tab tab tab "s" "s" tab enter. I'll come back to this in a bit.

4b: I use 2 fields 90% of the time: "custom condition/Effect" and "End Condition". The *only* other section I use is the Ongoing section. I do see the value of the Bonus/Penalty section too, although I've been typing them in shorthand for speed.

4c: I find that I naturally double click a PC/monster name when I want to apply actions or use healing surges. It confuses me that these are also available when I click on the condition/effects space beside a monster name. More fundamentally, it confuses me that the c/e window is used for both purposes.

Suggestion time:
So, what does that all amount to? I'd suggest considering another layer of organization:
4d: click on a pc/monster name to open a new window (character management?) apply healing, use healing surges, use action points, etc. Put these in a separate window. With the extra space you could break the character actions dropdown out and actually put up radio buttons for the actions. Please also add "lose healing surge" and "gain an action point" here.

4e: (see what I did there? click on conditions/effects area for conditions, ongoing, bonus/pen, resist, end conditions. Again, a separate window limited to these items. You should keep the Attacker/origin selector, but it should be out of the way, as most of the time it autopopulates properly (that was a nice touch, btw).

Inside the new c/e window, I would do layout like this:
Attacker/origin box (this will end up being "out of the way", see below)
Bonus/Penalty stuff next
Resist/Vul on a line of its own
Ongoing section (also a line of its own).
Conditions dropdown AND custom condition/effect box beside it.
End Condition

When the window opens, put focus on the conditions dropdown immediately.

Here's why:
- you group the dropdown and custom conditions boxes
- you put focus on the most commonly used box
- you allow the user to shift-tab back up to the ongoing, which is probably 2nd most common
- you allow a single tab to the custom conditions box
- you follow with a tab into the end condition and then tab/enter to hit OK.

Example:
I want a character dazed until the start of the origin's next turn:
>click c/e area on target
>"d" - tab - "s" - tab - enter

I want a +2 against undead until end of target's next turn:
>click c/e area on target
>tab - "+2 vs undead" - tab - e - e - e - tab - enter

Summary:
To me, this would be a huge improvement. Having a separate box for character mgmt issues like healing surges and action points would make that much easier to find and understand. Streamlining the c/e window would save me from bogging down on input time.

OK, thanks for taking the time to read all of this. I hope it's clear that I really appreciate the program and only want to help. I would never take this much time to analyze and write to you if I didn't think you had something really cool here.

cheers,
Mike

 

[4eTurnTracker]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for giving this some much time and thought. In short: I like you ideas!

Read on for more comments.

First, some comments and the reasoning behind them:
1. The accrued damage to monsters is a big problem for me. I'm the kind of DM that will extend a fight by applying less damage than what the PCs inflict if I realize that I've underestimated them, or vice versa, apply extra damage if they're in over their heads. With the damage tracked this way I can't do it.
1b. Same issue, 2nd reason: PCs fighting monster with "radiant vulnerable 10" last night, and when paladin hits for 17 I logged 27 damage. Boom, they know exactly the vulnerability. I would normally drop hints but not be so exact.

I will add an option in the next version to hide this. You will be able to set the option by right-clicking on the players window. For your mode of play you should also hide the ticker, because the amount of damage done to monsters by the PCs is listed there.

2. I love the shortcut where I click on the health bar and I get an automatic focus on the numeric input box at the top.

You can also hit TAB to get there in the latest version.

It would be great if "enter" would equate to the "hit" button.

Good idea! Then applying damage would just be TAB, number, ENTER.

3. I liked that I could use a monster's rechargable power and have it grey/lined out. I did find a bug once where no matter how I clicked on it, it would not great out. Not sure why.

Maybe the program did not recognize the power correctly. Send me the Stat Block if you have the time.

Finally, as a player and user, I have a lot of respect for the functionality that you've got in the conditions/effects (c/e) page, but as a UI-guy, I have a lot of thoughts and suggestions I'd like to drop. I feel a bit awkward on this, since I'm going to go to town on this a little bit. Also, very little of this would change functionality, it's all about lowering the learning curve and mostly about making it faster to use.

No problem. I welcome suggestions on the UI. It is a very tricky business!

4a: I found myself using the new text-based conditions box exclusively (thank you!). I can type 'prone', 'stunned' or 'dazed' faster than I can select them with a mouse.

Hmmm, you are right, locating a popup, and selecting an item is a comparatively slow process.

I find my biggest interface complaint is the extensive mouse-clicking on the conditions/effects (C/E) page. I suspect that your primary user base is going to be geeky computer-types, and all the geeks I know will tab/type their way around an application as much as they can.

Yes, and no. I would like the program to work for both "clicky" and keyboard people.

4b: I use 2 fields 90% of the time: "custom condition/Effect" and "End Condition". The *only* other section I use is the Ongoing section. I do see the value of the Bonus/Penalty section too, although I've been typing them in shorthand for speed.

Yup, I can see that happening.

4c: I find that I naturally double click a PC/monster name when I want to apply actions or use healing surges. It confuses me that these are also available when I click on the condition/effects space beside a monster name. More fundamentally, it confuses me that the c/e window is used for both purposes.

Yes, I guess these are 2 very different things.

Suggestion time:
So, what does that all amount to? I'd suggest considering another layer of organization:
4d: click on a pc/monster name to open a new window (character management?) apply healing, use healing surges, use action points, etc. Put these in a separate window.

Left-click on the pc/monster name is used to select a creature, and right-click is used for multiple selection so, I need another way to bring up the new "Actions Dialog" quickly. I could use double-click on the creature name, which is maybe what you were thinking of (although this may confuse some people expecting the C/E dialog). Of course I would also add an icon to the toolbar, and a keyboard hot-key.

With the extra space you could break the character actions dropdown out and actually put up radio buttons for the actions. Please also add "lose healing surge" and "gain an action point" here.

Yes, I could imagine it would be good to have the actions as radio buttons (or as "tool buttons" with a similar single selection effect).

4e: (see what I did there? click on conditions/effects area for conditions, ongoing, bonus/pen, resist, end conditions. Again, a separate window limited to these items. You should keep the Attacker/origin selector, but it should be out of the way, as most of the time it autopopulates properly (that was a nice touch, btw).

Inside the new c/e window, I would do layout like this:
Attacker/origin box (this will end up being "out of the way", see below)
Bonus/Penalty stuff next
Resist/Vul on a line of its own
Ongoing section (also a line of its own).
Conditions dropdown AND custom condition/effect box beside it.
End Condition

I like the idea of putting the Conditions dropdown next to the Custom input box. Makes sense together.

When the window opens, put focus on the conditions dropdown immediately.

Here's why:
- you group the dropdown and custom conditions boxes
- you put focus on the most commonly used box
- you allow the user to shift-tab back up to the ongoing, which is probably 2nd most common
- you allow a single tab to the custom conditions box
- you follow with a tab into the end condition and then tab/enter to hit OK.

Altogether very well thought out.

Example:
I want a character dazed until the start of the origin's next turn:
>click c/e area on target
>"d" - tab - "s" - tab - enter

I want a +2 against undead until end of target's next turn:
>click c/e area on target
>tab - "+2 vs undead" - tab - e - e - e - tab - enter

Yes, this is a significant improvement.

Some comments/questions:

1. You did not mention the Damage box in either the "Actions" or the new C/E dialog. Do you think this is not necessary because damage can be applied using the Toolbar? Many attacks do damage and then add some condition. E.G. 10 HP damage and 2 Ongoing. It is convenient, once you have selected the targets to be able to enter this all in one dialog.

2. Many users have asked for some way of entering damage type and ongoing damage type (not everyone likes to type it in). This is very tricky because: (a) damage and ongoing damage types may be different (b) multiply damage types are possible. With more space in the C/E however this becomes more practical.

3. There is a "far-sighted" reason for putting everything into one dialog. I plan to accelerate the input of attack powers by remembering what the DM entered the last time a power was used. In this way, when a Monster or PC uses a power, you just click on the power and the dialog is already all filled. Since (for example) loosing a healing surge could also be the result of a power, this also needs to be in the dialog. Also common: a PC is healed and is granted +2 to Defenses. Or, a PC takes his Second Wind, and gains some additional effect.

Any ideas you have on this would be welcome.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[bms]

Hi Paul, good to see your response, I'm excited about the next version now.

I will add an option in the next version to hide this. You will be able to set the option by right-clicking on the players window. For your mode of play you should also hide the ticker, because the amount of damage done to monsters by the PCs is listed there.

Yes I always turn the ticker off for that reason. If you set the option to control damage display in the ticker and the main status winder, I might turn it back on.

Maybe the program did not recognize the power correctly. Send me the Stat Block if you have the time.

Yeah I'll try to reload that encounter and see if i can get it to work again.

Yes, and no. I would like the program to work for both "clicky" and keyboard people.

Definitely. I think all of these suggestions will still make the point-and-click crowd happy. In fact, reorganizing some of the boxes to group things in more logical fashion will make it easier for everyone.

Left-click on the pc/monster name is used to select a creature, and right-click is used for multiple selection so, I need another way to bring up the new "Actions Dialog" quickly.

Interesting, I had never noticed that right click would do multiple selection. That's not a standard windows paradigm, do you think many of your users are aware of it or use it? I always shift-click or ctrl-click for multiselect.

I could use double-click on the creature name, which is maybe what you were thinking of (although this may confuse some people expecting the C/E dialog). Of course I would also add an icon to the toolbar, and a keyboard hot-key.

Rather than using the toolbar, I'd suggest that perhaps you could put an icon next to the names, or next to the health bar, that would allow users to click to bring up character management. A shortcut key would be a good thing to pair with that UI option.

Yes, I could imagine it would be good to have the actions as radio buttons (or as "tool buttons" with a similar single selection effect).

Maybe not radio buttons now that I think of it, since that limits you to one selection. But yes, "tool buttons" for each that would allow you to combine selections where appropriate would work. For example you could use a healing surge and spend an action point in one operation.

1. You did not mention the Damage box in either the "Actions" or the new C/E dialog. Do you think this is not necessary because damage can be applied using the Toolbar? Many attacks do damage and then add some condition. E.G. 10 HP damage and 2 Ongoing. It is convenient, once you have selected the targets to be able to enter this all in one dialog.

Here you may want to try surveying your users. I personally apply the damage from the main screen, and then add conditions as a second operation. That may just be the way I process the info though. Your suggested use case makes perfect sense though.

2. Many users have asked for some way of entering damage type and ongoing damage type (not everyone likes to type it in). This is very tricky because: (a) damage and ongoing damage types may be different (b) multiply damage types are possible. With more space in the C/E however this becomes more practical.

My only experience so far is with low-level characters where damage type hasn't been too important, but I expect that as they acquire items and powers with specific dmg type abilities this would be a concern. If you're toying with a new layout of the c/e window I'd be happy to look over your draft wireframe and give you feedback.

3. There is a "far-sighted" reason for putting everything into one dialog. I plan to accelerate the input of attack powers by remembering what the DM entered the last time a power was used. In this way, when a Monster or PC uses a power, you just click on the power and the dialog is already all filled. Since (for example) loosing a healing surge could also be the result of a power, this also needs to be in the dialog. Also common: a PC is healed and is granted +2 to Defenses. Or, a PC takes his Second Wind, and gains some additional effect.

Now that's would be a huge accomplishment, I'm impressed with the ambition! I see how you are starting to incorporate monster power usage, but what is the plan with PCs? I would think that you'd need some kind of "PC power setup" screen where you could pre-configure the powers. Then when PCs actually use these powers, you simply click on them to bring up the necessary screen, with auto-populated fields. I think you could be able to achieve the end result with the merged c/e window as it is today, but I suspect that it would be too complicated for most users to manage properly.

First question: when a PC wanted to activate a power, how do you see that being handled in the software? PCs use powers all the time, so you want to make sure you make this process as seamless as possible!

Any ideas you have on this would be welcome.

It's a great goal, so yeah, I'm happy to keep a dialog going about it. One consideration might be to incorporate a way to allow the players to update their own PCs power lists and effects. Perhaps a low-tech method first, like export the PC's powers to separate text files, distribute for editing and then re-import back to 4eturntracker?

Anyway, great job on the software so far, I hope you're still finding the development to be rewarding and not a chore. It sounds like you're still pretty enthusiastic about it in general!

cheers,
Mike

 

[4eTurnTracker]

Interesting, I had never noticed that right click would do multiple selection. That's not a standard windows paradigm, do you think many of your users are aware of it or use it?

Maybe not, but it is described in the "Need help selecting?" option which is available from the context menu in the initiative list.

Rather than using the toolbar, I'd suggest that perhaps you could put an icon next to the names, or next to the health bar, that would allow users to click to bring up character management.

OK. I will have to think about this.

Now that's would be a huge accomplishment, I'm impressed with the ambition! I see how you are starting to incorporate monster power usage, but what is the plan with PCs?

The plan is to import the PC powers from the .dnd4e files.

I would think that you'd need some kind of "PC power setup" screen where you could pre-configure the powers. Then when PCs actually use these powers, you simply click on them to bring up the necessary screen, with auto-populated fields. I think you could be able to achieve the end result with the merged c/e window as it is today, but I suspect that it would be too complicated for most users to manage properly.

Yes, doing all this with low Admin overhead will be the real challenge.

First question: when a PC wanted to activate a power, how do you see that being handled in the software? PCs use powers all the time, so you want to make sure you make this process as seamless as possible!

Well, this is what I would like to see:

First, you select the targets. Then you click on the PC/Monster power to be used. This will bring up the C/E dialog with a description of the power at the top.

You then specify which targets were missed (maybe by clicking on them in the target list). If this is a monster attacking then 4eTT could roll the attacks and sort the targets into hits and misses automatically. The C/E dialog will have 2 riders: Hit and Miss (the dialog elements are the same for both), so that both Hit and Miss effects can be specified.

The program will try to fill out the dialog according to the description of the power. As the DM, you then "correct" things by selecting damage types, conditions, effects and durations, etc. You then enter the damage. If this is a monster attacking, then the program could also roll the damage.

The program will remember what the DM selected for the power and pre-select these options the next time the power is used.

 

[4eTurnTracker]

4eTurnTracker 1.5.05 imports .monster files

4eTurnTracker 1.5.05 is now available for download. This version makes it easy to import Monsters from the online D&D Adventure Tools.

The Adventure Tools allow you to export a Monster by writing a ".monster" file. After you have done this go the Monster Manager in 4eTT and click on the "Import" tab. Then select the directory in which the .monster file was created by the Online tools.

After this you just double-click on the Monsters you want to import.

If you change the monster in Adventures Tools, export it again. Then go to 4eTT and double-click on the .monster file again. The monster Stat Block will be updated immediately.

Besides this there are a number of other improvements to the Monster Manager and I have added some features requested by a number of users.

For more details, check out the release announcement.

Try it out, and let me know if you spot any problems!

 

[4eTurnTracker]

4eTurnTracker goes Open Source!

4eTurnTracker is now an Open Source project.

So if you want to help, or are just curious, the source code is now hosted by Launchpad.

If you would like to get involved, then great, because there is lot's to do! With your help we can make 4eTurnTracker even better!

For more details, checkout the announcement.

 

[Ferghis]

My main issue is that I can't figure out how to prepare a power's conditions or effects before hand, so that in combat, I can just, for example, drag the effect to a few targets and have it applied properly.

Adding these details in during the middle of combat is too troublesome, at least for me.