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<blockquote data-quote="ValhallaGH" data-source="post: 4980779" data-attributes="member: 41187"><p>Monster success rates are where you want player success rates to be, for general enjoyment (60-70%). Most people feel successful, increasing the fun, when they succeed in that 60-70% range. If the PCs are actually succeeding about that amount then the game math is pretty good.</p><p>Defensively, success is being missed. Getting hit as much as 50% is okay as long as you can't suddenly go from decent (right around bloodied) to dead.</p><p></p><p>Hit points have a job, to survive when you do get hit. Their job isn't to soak <em>every single</em> monster attack roll. And they do nothing to compensate for the status effects that accompany most high-level attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's true that the d20 is a big variable, but that doesn't matter much when discussing the relative differences in defenses.</p><p>If the difference in defenses is +3 to +5, that is meaningful and noteworthy without being crippling. A foe that will hit your weak defense on a 7+ needs a 10 or 12 to hit your strong defenses. That's playable, and that is usually the difference in ability score bonuses.</p><p>If the difference in defenses is +10 or more then there is too much differentiation. This enters into the can't miss / can't hit range, and that gets to be no fun to run or play.</p><p></p><p>Limiting the range of potential bonuses while still having enough increase to eliminate potential threats is the goal of any sort of Defense analysis.</p><p>The enemies have Level + X to hit (about +3). So, a good defense for any given level should be around Level + 15. A weak defense should be around Level + 11.</p><p>Assuming an ability bonus differential of +4, the basic defense calculation should be about Level for either defense.</p><p>The system gives you 5/10 level + 2/10 level (magic). Characters automatically get 7 / 10 level to all defenses. It expects characters to use feats or specialty items to make up the difference ( 3 / 10 levels). So by the end of Heroic tier each PC should have found some way to add +3 to their off defenses. By the end of Paragon, this is up to a +6 total. By the end of Epic, it should be up to a +9 total. This use of feats and non-neck items should finally get PC defenses to the point they are supposed to be at.</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, the feat bonuses are +0 Heroic, +3 Paragon, and +11 Epic, after spending a total of 11 feats (over half of total feats). Only +9 at Epic for a "mere" 8 feats (almost half of total feats). This uses up half your character customization options to soak up the design difference between enemy attack progressions and PC defense progressions.</p><p>Without these feats, your defenses will sit around 7/10 Level + 15 (good) or + 11 (weak). While the monsters <em>of your level</em> start able to hit this on a 11+ / 7+, they end able to hit this on a 2+ / -2+. Monsters of higher levels, or using good tactics to get higher bonuses, will have correspondingly better attack rates. </p><p>They go from reasonable to certainty, assuming no PC feats are spent on increasing those defenses.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's as much a weakness as Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite. This, making assumed and necessary numbers part of the "optional" advancement, is a major design oddity. It's counter-intuitive and generally lessens the fun of high level play.</p><p>Is it a surprise that people are trying to fix it?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ValhallaGH, post: 4980779, member: 41187"] Monster success rates are where you want player success rates to be, for general enjoyment (60-70%). Most people feel successful, increasing the fun, when they succeed in that 60-70% range. If the PCs are actually succeeding about that amount then the game math is pretty good. Defensively, success is being missed. Getting hit as much as 50% is okay as long as you can't suddenly go from decent (right around bloodied) to dead. Hit points have a job, to survive when you do get hit. Their job isn't to soak [i]every single[/i] monster attack roll. And they do nothing to compensate for the status effects that accompany most high-level attacks. It's true that the d20 is a big variable, but that doesn't matter much when discussing the relative differences in defenses. If the difference in defenses is +3 to +5, that is meaningful and noteworthy without being crippling. A foe that will hit your weak defense on a 7+ needs a 10 or 12 to hit your strong defenses. That's playable, and that is usually the difference in ability score bonuses. If the difference in defenses is +10 or more then there is too much differentiation. This enters into the can't miss / can't hit range, and that gets to be no fun to run or play. Limiting the range of potential bonuses while still having enough increase to eliminate potential threats is the goal of any sort of Defense analysis. The enemies have Level + X to hit (about +3). So, a good defense for any given level should be around Level + 15. A weak defense should be around Level + 11. Assuming an ability bonus differential of +4, the basic defense calculation should be about Level for either defense. The system gives you 5/10 level + 2/10 level (magic). Characters automatically get 7 / 10 level to all defenses. It expects characters to use feats or specialty items to make up the difference ( 3 / 10 levels). So by the end of Heroic tier each PC should have found some way to add +3 to their off defenses. By the end of Paragon, this is up to a +6 total. By the end of Epic, it should be up to a +9 total. This use of feats and non-neck items should finally get PC defenses to the point they are supposed to be at. Unfortunately, the feat bonuses are +0 Heroic, +3 Paragon, and +11 Epic, after spending a total of 11 feats (over half of total feats). Only +9 at Epic for a "mere" 8 feats (almost half of total feats). This uses up half your character customization options to soak up the design difference between enemy attack progressions and PC defense progressions. Without these feats, your defenses will sit around 7/10 Level + 15 (good) or + 11 (weak). While the monsters [i]of your level[/i] start able to hit this on a 11+ / 7+, they end able to hit this on a 2+ / -2+. Monsters of higher levels, or using good tactics to get higher bonuses, will have correspondingly better attack rates. They go from reasonable to certainty, assuming no PC feats are spent on increasing those defenses. That's as much a weakness as Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite. This, making assumed and necessary numbers part of the "optional" advancement, is a major design oddity. It's counter-intuitive and generally lessens the fun of high level play. Is it a surprise that people are trying to fix it? [/QUOTE]
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