Invincible PC's

[Turtlejay]

A few of the threads on the front page right now are discussing the defenses of PC's, the issues with Masterwork Armor, and game balance. One thing that bugs me about the discussion is the assumtion that one's FRW should be all around good. Several suggestions have been made about allowing 3 increases in stats to cover each defense, or no increase in stats, or a generic +1 to all defenses...

Does nobody think that having a weak defense is perhaps a good thing, and maybe a deliberate decision? Especially considering the top end stacked nature of some of these examples. If you have an 18 dex, and a 14 wis, and can only spare an 11 for str/con, is it any wonder you have a crap fort? Should you get a pass because you twinked your character, in turn bumping the defenses of the well rounded character into unhittable ranges?

The other assumption is that every PC must/will take the to hit and FRW improving feats. They are feats, the designers put them in as feats to make them optional, you can make a great character by taking other feats, and all those feats do is help you shore up a weak spot, or stand out.

I see no problem with the Necromancer with the vs Fort attacks trying to get past the fighter to the bow ranger. It makes each combat have a new dimension, and is an understandable behavior. It allows the defenders to defend, and the healers to heal. Weak spots are normal, and part of Fantasy tropes (Raistlin?!).

Of course, some builds would like to pump 2 attributes that contribute to the same defense (pacifist clerics, barbarians, wand wizards) and those are the characters most in need of those banned feats. This is why I dislike blanket outlawing of options, and prefer a more targeted approach. My opinions at least. Feel free to disagree. I wouldn't post this on a message board if was afraid of being disagreed with...

Jay

 

[Garthanos]

If I understand you....
This argument could be similarly applied to expertise feats saying they are very useful to enable somebody who choses not to up there up there main attributes by 2 at every tier it avoids them being gimped because they wanted to diversify their attribute enhancement

 

[keterys]

It's desirable to have differences in defenses, but you probably don't want those differences to be so strong that you enter any sort of 'auto hit' or 'auto miss' territory.

For example, if a creature needs a 7 to hit the weak Fort character and a 19 to hit the high Fort fighter, that's probably a bit too much. If a creature needs a 2 to hit the weak Fort character, that's downright poor too.

 

[chitzk0i]

In my experience, PCs who have gotten a really high will, reflex, or fortitude will still get hit in that defense 40-50% of the time. So if that PC had instead boosted her lowest defense, all of them would get hit 60-70% of the time.

 

[Stalker0]

In my experience, PCs who have gotten a really high will, reflex, or fortitude will still get hit in that defense 40-50% of the time. So if that PC had instead boosted her lowest defense, all of them would get hit 60-70% of the time.

I think this is the crux of the argument.

The main complaint isn't that a person's lowest defense gets hit a lot (although there are some builds that seem to get hit on a -1 or better...which is pretty extreme). The complaint is that a person highest NAD, they one they have actually tried to boost, still is hit the majority of the time.

 

[Victim]

In my experience, PCs who have gotten a really high will, reflex, or fortitude will still get hit in that defense 40-50% of the time. So if that PC had instead boosted her lowest defense, all of them would get hit 60-70% of the time.

My experience mostly agrees. Even our character's good NAD defenses are hit around half the time at best. And something like our Battlerager's Ref will be hit more than 80% of the time with or without Lightning Reflexes.

For example, my level 18 human barbarian has 34 Fort with Paragon Defenses. Looking through MM2, I'm seeing attacks from non Brutes against NADs coming in at 21-23. That puts my best defense in the 40-50% range hit chance range without any sort of extra edge like CA.

 

[Rothe_]

Yeah, I agree about the highest NAD comment. Currently, the characters have to take all the feats available to have a chance of a miss against them at epic levels.
With moderate defenses ou even have to get items that give bonus to your saves in addition to the basic neck slot item.

Think about it:

At level 21 (early epics), you have:
10 base
+10 levels
+7 ability score
+4 item
+1 (averaging out) class bonus
= 32

A monster at your level has about +25 to hit you - they hit you on a 7+. Something is off? Your character is actually supposed to have a really good defense here.

To get +3 more, you really have to do some work. Perhaps your ability score has to be higher (that lowers the other defenses probably) and maybe you can get an item to boost this specific NAD, but this is your highest one.

Basically your only option is to take the feats, which makes me sad - you have to take specific feats to get to the baseline situation of getting hit on a 10-11 +

 

[Jhaelen]

Basically your only option is to take the feats, which makes me sad - you have to take specific feats to get to the baseline situation of getting hit on a 10-11 +

No. There's another option that's actually way better:
Have a leader that looks after you. Or still better: Have two leaders that look after you. Or still better: Have three ...

 

[Storminator]

I dunno, my cleric has a terrible Ref defense. Instead of bumping it up, we just try to kill anything that starts targeting my Ref. Considering how low damage output of monsters is at high level (according to all the hot threads!), maybe those monsters should be hitting all the time.

PS

 

[ExploderWizard]

The invincible PC/ super vulnerable PC are the natural result of bonus inflation. If the resolution mechanic die is a d20 and bonues can easily equal or surpass that range you will end up with a system that makes a strength nigh invincible and a weakness crippling.

It is difficult for one thing to meaningfully interact with another with such a wide range of difficulty. When a minimum roll still gets the job done with overkill or a maximum roll won't even get you close to a success then the system breaks down.

Use overall lower defenses, limit bonuses to perhaps +/- 10 maximum including circumstantials and let hit points do thier job.