D&D (2024) Ranged nerf by buffing Prone condition.

[Asisreo]

I think we understand that the general consensus is that ranged is superior than melee for all except damage that is guaranteed to land. But when distances larger than 30ft are involved, ranged tends to be superior. While there are many downsides to ranged options, feats tend to cover those weaknesses while keeping pace with the melee options, pushing ranged to an even greater tier of damage.

But there is still one thing ranged attacks cannot overcome: the affects of being prone.

If an opposing force finds themselves under fire by ranged enemies, the optimal strategy is to go prone at the end of your turn, then pop back up to retaliate (or dash if you don't have ranged options), then go prone again if you aren't within melee distance.

A melee character, in theory, prevents this from being an optimal strategy as a melee character would then have advantage and could even grapple the enemy to force them to stay on the ground.

However, even this isn't really enough. If the ranged PCs have Crossbow Expert, then can take the role of a melee character without losing out on anything. Meaning that even within a melee character's own niche, the ranged character is still practically just as effective.

However, if prone were to be buffed defensively, then melee characters could reinforce their position as a welcome niche in a party. One way to buff proned is to make it so that all ranged attacks, not just those over 5ft away, have an accuracy debuff. And, rather than disadvantage, you could use a debuff equal to the proned character's proficiency modifier or dex modifier, to show that they're not just getting low, but they're actively getting low in order to avoid ranged threats.

Finally, we could actually nerf proned against melee characters by giving them disadvantage to avoid or free themselves from grapple checks.

 

[Horwath]

I found that few things help melee vs ranged:

1. Ranged attacks provoke AoO
2. When you use ranged weapon to attack, all melee attacks have advantage vs you until the start of your next turn.

 

[Vikingkingq]

I think we understand that the general consensus is that ranged is superior than melee for all except damage that is guaranteed to land. But when distances larger than 30ft are involved, ranged tends to be superior.

i'm a bit confused. What's the difference between the two cases if ranged is superior in both?

However, even this isn't really enough. If the ranged PCs have Crossbow Expert, then can take the role of a melee character without losing out on anything. Meaning that even within a melee character's own niche, the ranged character is still practically just as effective.

Another question: I'm not seeing anything about Crossbow Expert affecting Prone, just the 5ft thing. Did I miss something?

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

i'm a bit confused. What's the difference between the two cases if ranged is superior in both?

His implication seems to be at least the way I read it and I paraphrase here

"While most people generally agree that ranged is superior to melee, it is certain that ranged is superior to melee at ranges over 30 feet".

 

[Stalker0]

I think we understand that the general consensus is that ranged is superior than melee for all except damage that is guaranteed to land. But when distances larger than 30ft are involved, ranged tends to be superior. While there are many downsides to ranged options, feats tend to cover those weaknesses while keeping pace with the melee options, pushing ranged to an even greater tier of damage.

But there is still one thing ranged attacks cannot overcome: the affects of being prone.

If an opposing force finds themselves under fire by ranged enemies, the optimal strategy is to go prone at the end of your turn, then pop back up to retaliate (or dash if you don't have ranged options), then go prone again if you aren't within melee distance.

A melee character, in theory, prevents this from being an optimal strategy as a melee character would then have advantage and could even grapple the enemy to force them to stay on the ground.

However, even this isn't really enough. If the ranged PCs have Crossbow Expert, then can take the role of a melee character without losing out on anything. Meaning that even within a melee character's own niche, the ranged character is still practically just as effective.

However, if prone were to be buffed defensively, then melee characters could reinforce their position as a welcome niche in a party. One way to buff proned is to make it so that all ranged attacks, not just those over 5ft away, have an accuracy debuff. And, rather than disadvantage, you could use a debuff equal to the proned character's proficiency modifier or dex modifier, to show that they're not just getting low, but they're actively getting low in order to avoid ranged threats.

Finally, we could actually nerf proned against melee characters by giving them disadvantage to avoid or free themselves from grapple checks.

If we are going 5e style, simplicity is king. You don't want nuances bonuses that people need to figure out like proficiency bonuses.

Probably the simplest way to go is use the cover system.

A prone character has cover against ranged attacks, and they suffer disadvantage as well.


So that's an effective -2 to attack for the bow (which in 5e terms is a solid penalty) on top of the disadvantage....that's a meaty penalty. Should be all that you need.

 

[Asisreo]

If we are going 5e style, simplicity is king. You don't want nuances bonuses that people need to figure out like proficiency bonuses.

Probably the simplest way to go is use the cover system.

A prone character has cover against ranged attacks, and they suffer disadvantage as well.


So that's an effective -2 to attack for the bow (which in 5e terms is a solid penalty) on top of the disadvantage....that's a meaty penalty. Should be all that you need.

My only issue is that sharpshooter still bypasses that. So you'd either need to tack on a "cannot affect cover due to prone" clause on sharpshooter or make it an explicit -2.

And still, that's also somewhat negated by the archery fighting style.

 

[Horwath]

My only issue is that sharpshooter still bypasses that. So you'd either need to tack on a "cannot affect cover due to prone" clause on sharpshooter or make it an explicit -2.

And still, that's also somewhat negated by the archery fighting style.

well, that's what sharpshooter is. to bypass obstacles for shooting people.

 

[Vikingkingq]

His implication seems to be at least the way I read it and I paraphrase here

"While most people generally agree that ranged is superior to melee, it is certain that ranged is superior to melee at ranges over 30 feet".

Yes, I think that statement is usually correct.

 

[Asisreo]

well, that's what sharpshooter is. to bypass obstacles for shooting people.

Yeah, but the consequence is that ranged combatants continue to have an edge over melee combatants.

We want something that grants melee characters a niche that won't be negated by a feat.

 

[Vikingkingq]

We want something that grants melee characters a niche that won't be negated by a feat.

I dunno, I think the proliferation of martial melee abilities that render the opponent Prone is already going to have an impact on the desirability of rnaged combat.