D&D General Crossbow and Bow House Rules

[Xeviat]

Hi everybody!

Playing BG3 again has reminded me of a little frustration I've had with 5E. Until you get extra attack, Light Crossbow is better than Shortbow and heavy Crossbow is better than Longbow. They're supposed to be the same profiency, so that's annoying.

Maybe this is intended. It means crossbows are good for anyone starting out, but a dedicated warrior will want to switch once they improve their skills. Okay... but that sounds like simple vs martial.

I don't like the idea of it being optimal for a ranger to switch from heavy Crossbow to Longbow at 5th level. That's unusual.

So, I came up with this.

Light Crossbow: 2d8 Piercing; Ammunition (Range 60/240*; Bolt), Loading**, Strength Rating, Two-Handed; Mastery: Slow
Heavy Crossbow: 2d10 Piercing; Ammunition (Range 80/320*; Bolt), Loading*, Two-Handed, Heavy**; Mastery: Push

*Ranges have been reduced
***Heavy requires 13 Strength, regardless if the weapon is melee or ranged.
**Loading: A Loading weapon needs to be loaded before you can make an attack with it. Loading a Loading weapon normally takes a Utilize Action, but see Loading Rating below. A Loading weapon can be kept loaded for up to 8 hours without issue.
Strength Rating: A Loading weapon's Strength Rating shows how much power can be stored within the bow. For every point of Strength Rating, increase the weapon's Short Range by 10 ft and it's Long Range by 40 ft. You also add the weapon's loading rating to the weapon's damage. If your Strength is at least equal to the weapon's Loading Rating, you can load it in place of an Attack when you take the Attack Action, rather than as a full Utilize Action.

Thus, if your Strength and Dexterity modifiers are equal, Crossbows now deal double damage, but they cost an action or an attack to reload. If you are a dedicated crossbow user, this will even out when combat is an even number of rounds, and you'll be ahead when combat is an odd number of rounds. The option to keep a loaded crossbow for a 1st attack and then not reloading it till after is still there, but I'm not sure if it should be rebalanced around the 1/2 vs 2/3 split (which would be about 175% damage instead of 200%); if I did, 1d10 to 2d8 (heavy crossbows were 1d8 in 3E), is +164%, and 1d8 to 2d6 is +156%.

I think this could give crossbows their own niche. In fortification defense, two people could work together each round, one firing a crossbow and the other loading (since your Str doesn't matter if you're loading with a full action, as you're using a winch or a foot brace and using your leg power). Characters who aren't focusing on Str or Dexterity could find crossbows to be a nice side-arm, loaded and ready at the hip for when needed (maybe certain things could set it off, causing a loud misfire). Dedicated Crossbow users can still fine tune and find a place, doing double damage but half as many attacks as a bow user.

This would also provide a structure to introduce Composite bows (attack with strength, but only up to the bow's Strength rating), and for guns (having longer load times and strength requirements for the recoil).

What do you think?

 

[Horwath]

I agree with the loading action, but damage could be little lower, or it will be just a bag of holding and bunch of crossbows later on.

maybe bows and crossbows should have same damage, but crossbows are all simple with Loading and less range and bows are martial without loading and longer range.

 

[GMMichael]

Playing BG3 again has reminded me of a little frustration I've had with 5E. Until you get extra attack, Light Crossbow is better than Shortbow and heavy Crossbow is better than Longbow.

"Better" is subjective. How are you using it?

Why doesn't the crossbow expert feat meet your needs?

 

[Shadowdweller00]

This is intended. Crossbowman are... more or less generally acknowledged by pop medieval military historians to be inferior to skilled longbowmen. But much faster and easier to train. Military crossbows usually offer somewhat better penetration (damage) in exchange for a slower rate of fire. Amongst other things.

 

[Xeviat]

"Better" is subjective. How are you using it?

Why doesn't the crossbow expert feat meet your needs?

Better... as in from levels 1-4, crossbows deal more damage than bows for no trade off. Bows become better if you get Extra Attack, from then on bows are entirely better than crossbows.

I'd be fine with bows being better than crossbows for martials if bows were all martial and crossbows were all simple, but 2 of the 3 crossbows are martial and short bows are simple.

Yeah, crossbows are better in untrained hands than a bow, but a level 4 fighter isn't untrained hands.

 

[aco175]

Check out the videos on the Chinese or Korean repeating crossbows. They shoot with less power and range, but you can shoot 10 bolts a round. Didn't 3e have a repeating crossbow where the top 'magazine' would be swapped out every couple rounds.

 

[Willie the Duck]

This is one of the consequences of the simplification of the game. Earlier versions (at least AD&D) had a systematic rate of fire for both weapons that went up as you levelled, but consistently kept the crossbow behind the longbow for the same character class at any given level.

At the same time, that meant that crossbows pretty much weren't ever used except by thieves (in the versions where they couldn't use bows ), and '0th-level fighters.' AD&D was much more at peace with huge swaths of gaming material that only got used by NPCs. To my mind, what they've done with crossbows is not unlike what they've done with pikes -- bend the realism in order to make them a playable option.

The disjointed thing about better option levels 1-4, and then switch it up at 5th is kinda annoying, but it's not isolated. How many valor bards suddenly switch to medium armor and maybe change up weapon type at level 3? It does seem super-artificial, but beyond that I'm not sure I dislike it. Characters changing what weapons they use, armors they wear, heck whether they carry lanterns and oil, change as they level. That used to be pretty normal. I don't know that it existing now is necessarily a problem (other than the janky granularity on the matter).

Anyways, to the OP -- your idea looks like more complication that I would put into it, but certainly not wrong in any way. If it works for you, excellent.

This is intended. Crossbowman are... more or less generally acknowledged by pop medieval military historians to be inferior to skilled longbowmen. But much faster and easier to train. Military crossbows usually offer somewhat better penetration (damage) in exchange for a slower rate of fire. Amongst other things.

I think OP is complaining that, at levels 1-4*, the crossbow doesn't have a slower rate of fire. It just has better damage, and no downsides.
*where people can already be skilled in the use of longbows

 

[Charlaquin]

Never heard of Crossbow, but I do love me some Bauhaus.

 

[GMMichael]

Better... as in from levels 1-4, crossbows deal more damage than bows for no trade off . . .

Unless there's one of those weird, mid-edition errors going on, it looks to me like bows get 50% more range than crossbows. At low level, being farther away from the enemy can be a HUGE advantage (for survivability). Also, bows are much lighter than crossbows. But yes, the x-bows deal a smidge more damage.

Yeah, crossbows are better in untrained hands than a bow, but a level 4 fighter isn't untrained hands.

Out of 20 levels, one might say that level 4 fighters are relatively untrained.

This is one of the consequences of the simplification of the game. Earlier versions (at least AD&D) had a systematic rate of fire for both weapons that went up as you levelled, but consistently kept the crossbow behind the longbow for the same character class at any given level.

This is a 5e/6e flub. Good catch. I don't see a good game design reason for a few weapons to be so significantly worse than all other weapons in the game - re: unable to make multiple attacks per round.

Characters changing what weapons they use, armors they wear, heck whether they carry lanterns and oil, change as they level. That used to be pretty normal. I don't know that it existing now is necessarily a problem (other than the janky granularity on the matter).

Troof. People change. Characters change. There's no requirement to stick with the same loadout for 20 levels. For a set of characters to all make a similar change at a similar point, however, is kind of weird.

Never heard of Crossbow, but I do love me some Bauhaus.

Well, here you go!

 

[Bill Zebub]

IMO they should have the same stats, so that players can pick whatever flavor they prefer without worrying about mechanics. Sort of like longsword vs. battleaxe vs. warhammer.

I could care less about historical realism.