Invisibility Questions

[allenw]

Obviously, you're casting Fireball in an empty area because you think (incorrectly) that there's an invisible opponent there. Or you're a sorcerer, and you just fireball each room before you enter as a safety precaution.

 

[kwiqsilver]

Invisibility is not a divination spell, it does not know when an invisible opponent is subject to other spells you cast so that u become visible, nor does it make u visible later when someone needs to make a saving throw.
But if we follow my logic invisibility is broken by Cure Light Wounds as it can cause damage, and it gives a saving throw. Not sure if that is what the designers wished for.

And if you continue that logic, how does it know that you cast Fireball or Fox's Cunning? It doesn't. Gary Gygax probably didn't want a 2nd level spell to be able to mask a character while he decimated his enemies, so it's ended when you "attack".
To be nit-picky though, Cure Light Wounds cast on a friend is a "harmless" save, which is allowed under invisibility. It basically becomes Cause Light Wounds against undead, which would make you visible.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

You're telling me that it seems more reasonable to you that in the history of the existence of the invisibility spell in a given D&D campaign no wizard ever experiments to discover its limitations?

Actually, I'm suggesting to you that in the history of the existence of D&D campaigns, this particular limitation (whether an invisible wizard casting fireball on a space he knows to be completely empty counts as an attack and therefore makes him visible) has never been interesting, important, or relevant.

If it's it's a strictly hypothetical case that is never actually going to happen, is it really worth coming up with a ruling for it? It might be better to focus on the actual, in-game situations where you genuinely need to know what ends invisibility and what doesn't; namely, spells you can or can't cast next to potential witnesses without becoming visible again.

Trust me, I understand the allure of thought experiments, and trying to come up with a pleasing rationale for how a fictional process really works based on the few rules you have on hand to describe it. I'm just momentarily dazzled by how silly this particular thought experiment is getting.

--
not that silly is a bad thing, as long everyone knows that's what it is

 

[Sammael]

Okay, hands up: who else read this and thought "Why are you casting fireball on an empty area?"

Not me. Fireball is a handy (if a bit overkill) way to take care of wooden objects, such as doors, or destroy potential cover for enemies.

 

[Fieari]

Not only that, but I have a player who loves investigating these kinds of quandries. He actually would roleplay such an experiment, likely in anticipation for a mission comming up involving invisibility, but also possibly just for fun.

 

[Gorgon]

To be nit-picky though, Cure Light Wounds cast on a friend is a "harmless" save, which is allowed under invisibility. It basically becomes Cause Light Wounds against undead, which would make you visible.

Where is allowed under invisibility? Book and page number please.

And the instances i have in my game are invisible characters casting entangle, web and stone spikes in empty areas to block movement. If no one is there r they attack spells, and do they cause u to become visible? I can't see how, if u don't become visible straight away, u become visible when someone makes a saving throw 2 or 3 rounds later.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

I remember IMC when the wizard (who was invisible) cast fire shield on himself when he stumbled into the final encounter by himself. The BBEG said "Thanks! Now I can see you" and proceeded to make chopped liver out of him. It was funny seeing the wizard froth at the mouth over his mistake.

 

[jgsugden]

Where is allowed under invisibility? Book and page number please.

And the instances i have in my game are invisible characters casting entangle, web and stone spikes in empty areas to block movement. If no one is there r they attack spells, and do they cause u to become visible? I can't see how, if u don't become visible straight away, u become visible when someone makes a saving throw 2 or 3 rounds later.

From the SRD invisibility entry:

). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Cure light wounds, cast on an ally, does not target a foe or include a foe in the area of effect. Thus, it doesn't end invisibility. If cast on a foe (usually undead), then it does target a foe and breaks the invisibility.

Fireballing a rope bridge that your enemies are walking across will not make you visible, if the enemies are not contained in the blast.

Casting a web or wall spell to block off the only exit will not end invisibility, as long as your foes are not contained in the area of the spell initially.
There is *a lot* that can be done without breaking invisibility. As long as the foe is not in the AoE as defined in the spell, you're not attacking for purposes of this spell.

Note that these restrictions only clarify what is an attack in regards to spells. Things that are not spells are still subjective. For instance, if I casually and gently toss a book to a foe, it is up to the DM whether that is an attack.