Invisibility...when does it end?

[smakko]

OK here's a situation I ran into with a PF conversion game we were playing:
A Rogue was invisible (from a potion) and was sneaking around some buildings to get the drop on some Drow that were getting ready to attack the rest of the party. He managed to get within 50' and then threw a Daylight Pellet (from MIC -

a daylight pellet can be thrown 50'; when it lands, it shatters and creates illumination equivalent to a daylight spell, but with a duration of 10 rounds.

) into the midst of a concentrated group of Drow warriors - he targeted a point on the map and not a Drow.

The question is this: When the rogue throws the pellet, does this end the invisibility spell since the spell area of effect of the Daylight Pellet includes the Drow?

 

[Alzrius]

I'd say yes, it ends. From the PSRD (emphasis mine):

INVISIBILITY

School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M/DF (an eyelash encased in gum arabic)

Range personal or touch

Target you or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless) or yes (harmless, object)

The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

The rogue knew the drow were his foes, and knew that using a daylight pellet would harm them, and threw it into an area where it would affect them. Hence, it was an attack, and so ends his invisibility.

 

[smakko]

For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

Even if the character doesn't cast the spell (its from a use activated item)?

I would assume it does, since this would open a can of worms with wands and other trigger/use activated items.

C-

 

[Abciximab]

I'd say yes, it ends. From the PSRD (emphasis mine):



The rogue knew the drow were his foes, and knew that using a daylight pellet would harm them, and threw it into an area where it would affect them. Hence, it was an attack, and so ends his invisibility.

So... If he threw the pellet into the midst of a group of humans where it simply illuminates and doesn't cause blindness for 1 round, would he still become visible?

 

[Alzrius]

Even if the character doesn't cast the spell (its from a use activated item)?

I would assume it does, since this would open a can of worms with wands and other trigger/use activated items.

I wouldn't make using an item, as opposed to actually cast the spell, any sort of exception. As you noted, that creates a big (and, IMHO, totally unnecessary) debate.

So... If he threw the pellet into the midst of a group of humans where it simply illuminates and doesn't cause blindness for 1 round, would he still become visible?

Even assuming those humans are his foes (depending, as the spell notes, on his perception), I wouldn't say it makes him visible, since that's not directly affecting them. They aren't blinded, or taking any other penalties or damage, so I'd say that at worst it's still an indirect effect (such as illuminating them and drawing the attention of some other people), and doesn't break the invisibility.

 

[Abciximab]

*Snip*
Even assuming those humans are his foes (depending, as the spell notes, on his perception), I wouldn't say it makes him visible, since that's not directly affecting them. They aren't blinded, or taking any other penalties or damage, so I'd say that at worst it's still an indirect effect (such as illuminating them and drawing the attention of some other people), and doesn't break the invisibility.

So taking the exact same action under different circumstances changes when Invisibility is dispelled. That's a tough call. I think I would lean toward the opposite.

Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth.

Though I understand what you're saying about opening a can of worms, I would rule targeting a square with something that creates light (not necessarily harmful) would be similar to summoning a monster to attack your enemies. As a DM I would probably give the players the benefit of the doubt in this instance, though I can certainly see how a different DM may rule otherwise. I think invisibility is one of those spells that is open to interpretation (The can of worms is already open, so to speak).

 

[smakko]

Heh, this line of conversation sounds incredibly similar to the one we just had this past weekend (even with the examples of humans instead of Drow being in the area of effect).

Great input everyone, thanks!

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Though I understand what you're saying about opening a can of worms, I would rule targeting a square with something that creates light (not necessarily harmful) would be similar to summoning a monster to attack your enemies. As a DM I would probably give the players the benefit of the doubt in this instance, though I can certainly see how a different DM may rule otherwise. I think invisibility is one of those spells that is open to interpretation (The can of worms is already open, so to speak).

I'd also say it's not dissimilar to cutting the supports on a rope bridge while enemies are on it - almost certainly it would cause them less harm than that, and it's no more (or less) directed against them.

 

[kinem]

The rule that "attacking ends invisibility" is useful in some ways and has a long history in D&D ... but let's face it: it's just stupid, as this example shows. Pathfinder should have replaced it with something more well-defined.

An example might be that throwing anything, casting a non-personal spell or sp/su ability, or striking a surface with sufficient pressure ends it. That would include most attacks, a well as things like falling down or being struck. Probably there would be some attack forms that wouldn't end it, like releasing poison gas, but that's OK.

 

[coyote6]

I don't know, those sound just as ill-defined to me. What qualifies as "being struck"? If I fling water around a room, does being hit by a drop count? Replace the water with flour, or sand, or gravel, or bees?