(IR) 4th ooc-thread of the 5th IR

[Kalanyr]

Her Illustrious Majesty Xin Hope sends this message to all other powers that are not Lawful Evil in outlook.

"We of the Miranda alliance would like to propose the Miranda pact all nations and people who have recieved this missive, our proposal is simple and shall not be unneccessarilly complicated. Signee's to the Miranda pact will initiate no agressive action against any other signee, and will not infiltrate any other signee beyond the level of 5%. Those who sign the pact are expected to enforce its terms but no formal wording will be set down, we believe such wording is merely likely to cause loopholes. All signees will be given an optout at the end of every Turn, we of Miranda understand that sometimes things change. "


Edena
[sblock]
I'm willing to sign onto the TEC pact under the condition of the opt-out condition, and the condition that no religions commit either murder, kidnap or torture or in any other way harm the peoples of the Miranda alliance within its boundaries. They may commit rituals that do not require people other than themselves within the lands (and may invite other to participate as long as no harm comes to these others) and as long as the land of Miranda is in no way permanently desecrated or unhallowed, likewise the summoning of demons, devils or yugoloths beyond the time required for this ceremonies is likewise unacceptable. If these conditions are acceptable the drow will be allowed within our lands. They will however be watched, you cannot expect millenia of distrust to evaporate overnight.
[/sblock]

 

[Kalanyr]

What name and addresses are you using to sign on Airwhale ? I can probably clear up the issue. (chances are your name has more than two non-alphanumeric characters which the server won't allow).

 

[Kalanyr]

This post is purely OOC knowledge. (by the BoED not even dieties can enter Morwel's court without permission, no game effect but neccessary for this post if the gods have not yet departed) [if this is not possible then this does not happen until the gods depart.)


In her court of stars and warded beyond even the watchful eyes and ears of divinity Morwel sits on her throne, with her consorts Faerinaal and Gwynharwyf at her side. Her eyes are open and alert, her consorts in similar poses, however the true activity is carried out between minds, carried on the wings of magic.

Morwel
The gods are distant and unreliable, we have served them for millenia and yet now they abandon their own, and we are sent as their token offering. Perhaps it is time we took a more active role in mortal affairs, my loves, with the sealing coming the Veil will be broken. Perhaps the people are better of without their gods, free to run their own lives.

Gwynharwyf
Lover, are you suggesting what I believe you are ?

Morwel
Indeed, with the gods gone perhaps we can gather the power of their worshippers here to us. We could make use of the divine energy of faith, and elevate ourselves, to true divinity, we could give the aid they expect of their gods, without meddling as the gods have, and it seems to have served no great purpose. A great evil still comes, and many of the gods work only to support evil, and yet many of the other gods tolerate and even work in alliance with these gods of evil.

Faerinaal
Dearest, are you sure this is the wisest course of action ?

Morwel sits silent for a few moments before her mouth curves into a smile and her eyes open, and for the shortest of seconds, her visage becomes terrifying so suffused in conflict between passion and honour, is it.

Perhaps it is not, but while the gods are gone, the people of Miranda require aid, and with the faith being channeled here instead of to the silent gods, we can give the aid they need.

Gwynharwyf
Then that is what must be done.

Faerinaal
Indeed. We do our best following our instincts, and so now we trust yours.

 

[Serpenteye]

Hi All,

...

(Oh, and the PL look fine, but they do not look balanced... for example, Knight otu's power has more IC and PL then bugbears, with no disadvantage I can see. This is fine if we accept that the power of different factions are not even.)

Hi,

Indeed, the power of different factions is not intended to be even.

Serpenteye! I have claimed Sword of Kas in the previous thread, and you didn`t react. I haven`t claimed any other artifact, Kas was vampire like Gallador, and it can provide link to Vecna- all good reasons I think.

Also, I don`t think it is realistic for 1 character between 16th and 20th level to be equivalent of 1 Epic Pl. Factions like mine`s, Acererak`s or Creamsteak`s likely have more than a handful 16th-18th level characters, 16th level liches or Vampires aren`t that rare. So I suggest either:

-1 Epic Pl is worth around 10 or 5 characters of 16th-20th level
-or only true epic characters or artifacts contribute to Epic Pl. So 1 Elite Pl might be 500 6th level veterans as well as only one wizard that can cast 9th level spells (or this wizard may be worth even 3 Elite Pl, which is still much less than one Epic).

Note that those minor changes don`t affect mechanics at all, but in my opinion makes the amount of Epic Pl`s you assigned more realistic.

1) The sword of Kas is yours, PLs adjusted accordingly.

2) High level characters are fairly rare in Greyhawk, and high CR monsters aren't that common. I know the Solistarim are supposed to have thousands of elite characters and monsters and that the Undersark is full of nasties, but it's impossible to balance it with the pathetic official numbers for the surface realms.
Greyhawk isn't made for strategic gaming, it's made for a party of adventurers to fight their way trough it, fighting against immobile monsters who wait for them in 10x10 foot rooms and have no other purpose than dying. It's made for villains who'll make dire plans, but always have them foiled at the very last minute. It doesn't take into account that it should be impossible for the official rabble of humanity to survive in a world crawling with monsters who are their superiors in every aspect. It doesn't take spawning undead, like vampires, bodaks, or wraiths into account, or the world would be a dead orb inhabited only by the twisted spirits of the once living.
If I increase the amount of indivuduals represented by an Epic PL I'll have to drastically lower the epic PLs of most surface-factions and re-balance the PL of all factions. Since I have started to recieve templates it's too late to make changes on that scale, if it's even possible.
Instead; Think of Epic individuals as extraordinary individuals, not so much limited by their ecl as a more intangible quality of greatness. The best of the best, not your run of the mill Illithid, Titan, Vampire or Dragon... Also, remember that there are plenty of fell creatures outside the control of any faction. There are vampires who have no loyalty to Gallador and Illithids who want nothing to do with Yugtholton (sp?).

Ah... sorry for rambling. All gaming requires the suspension of disbelief, the 5th IR is no exception.

I am confused about two things:

Can I demobilize any of my starting 200 regular armies Pl in order to increase my starting IC?

Also, if I increase both the infrastructure and research technology, should I count my maximum IC capacity as it would be in turn 2 when I have higher tech level, or I can`t invest more IC than to raise it to my actual limit?

1) You can demobilize them to increase the ppts you can spend in the template. Those ppts can be invested in a number of ways, as normal.

2) There are no limits, besides your amount of ppts, to how much you can invest in anything. All your investments take a turn to realise and you gain the benefit of both tech-increase and industrialization at the same time.
If you're planning on increasing your IC substantially you wuld be well served by both industrializing and upgrading your technology, that way you can make the most immediate profit from your investments.

Tie-in q: For infiltration/counter, do you use the IC value at start, or the increased?

You use the IC value at the start of every Turn.

Question:

1) Do you develop Tech and IC and armys before,during, or after combat?

I.e.: If I attack anyone who spends pp to increase IC, and I take their land, do I get the land with the higher IC? If not, is the pp spent?

2) If I raise my technology the same turn in which I attack, do I get the attack bonus?

3) Can I attack with armys just formed or upgraded this turn?

4) Can I sack Epic armys for magic research that were upgraded this turn?

5) Can I build Tech level 4 and build up to the equivelent IC in the same turn?

6) Would Inf/spy costs be payed before or after the IC has been upped?

Also, would someone mind reposting the rules on making non-demonic/poluting technology? I can't seem to find them.

1) Development takes place during the turn, all investments get their return the following turn. With the exception of raising armies; you get them the same turn as your template and can use them immediately. Combat can take place at any time during the turn.

2) No, you only get the benefit of technology the next turn of the game.

3) Yes, that's an exeption to the general rule that things takes time.

4) Yes, armies are upgraded or created instantaneously, but only one step at a time. (You can't upgrade regulars to elites to epics in the same turn.) Magical research still takes a turn.

5) Yes, and if you've reached your maximum usable IC that's probably a smart thing to do.

6) Before.


*Note to self, add these clarifications to the rules-post.

Do we know why the devils gave it to us? Is there any reason to distrust it?

No, and not really (as far as you know).

The chronology of the IR has been a bit turned around... The devils haven't actually arrived yet, though they will do so at the very beginning of the Turn (and you can therefore begin use their technology in your templates), nor has the Sphere closed and the Gods are still around (though they're distracted enough to ignore events on Oerth and pay no attention to most prayers).
The Devils will explain what they're about as soon as the game starts (any you're free to change your policies with regards to Diabolic technology during the turn (an exception made necessary by RP)).

Hmm.

Could we develop demonic, poluting tech, and then convert it to non-poluting,non-demonic tech should the need arise?

Edit:

Look at the following. Something does not add up in Radiants pls

RADIANT


PC: Sanakan, 58th First Claw of the Sikari.
Other characters: Blackwing, Snowfox, Ratcatcher, Scarface, Darkness, Slayer
Artifacts: unknown yet


POPULATIONS, IC VALUES AND DEGREES OF CONTROL OVER TERRITORIES:

The Celestial Imperium: 19,800,000 = 999 IC x 0,25 = 249,75 IC
The Claw Mercenary Company of the Sikari: N/A

TOTAL IC OF RADIANTS' POWER SO FAR: 249,75 IC

PL:

Regular PL: 50 (50 points)
Elite PL: 65 (650 points)
Epic PL: 3 (not including PC) (300 points)
Sanakan: 1 epPL (100 points)

TOTAL VALUE OF PL: 1550 rPL (not 1200 points)

Thanks . I made the list by copy-pasting and must have forgotten to change the numbers in the last line.

Serpenteye, out of interest what purpose does the non-military Epic PL of Artifacts I possess serve ? Are they only good to burn in the magical arms race (Since In Character there's no way Morwel would destroy them except in the most desperate measure do they have some other purpose) ?

I figured you can't whack people over the head with a fountain .

Seriously, all artifacts have a value beyond their stated epPLs. Artifacts that have no direct martial usefulness have a greater peaceful use. Morwel's court, for example, is an expellent safe-house (even Vecna would have great difficulties getting in there, and would probably fail at his current power). The fountain might have illusionary or purifying qualities.


----

I have made some minor changes to some of your Epic PLs. Take a look in my post on pg 2.


----

I have recieved the templates of Anabstercorian, Creamsteak, Kalanyr, Rikandur and Bugbear. If someone else has sent their template to me it hasn't arrived, in that case please try again.

 

[Airwhale]

Missed a question:

Could we develop demonic, poluting tech, and then convert it to non-poluting,non-demonic tech should the need arise?

Also, private for Serpanteye
[sblock]
I was talking with William ronnaled last night who was encouraging me to take either Johydee and her mask or Keoghtom as a hero dieaty Johydee could have found herself on Ginsel a long time ago, and found herself in a position several years ago to stop the warring by taking on the guse of one of their leaders. Unfortionatly, she was in this guise so long, she forgot who she was!

Let me know what you think. If you like it, I think Johydee. Hero-God of Deception, Espionage, Protection and her mask would be a good addition to our faction. Likewise, Keoghtom, Hero-God of Secret Pursuits, Natural Alchemy, Extraplanar Exploration would be a good fit, and he could have gotten involved for more obvious reasons... He lives in outerspace, and wants his home to be resonably peacefull
[/sblock]

thanks for the clarafication!

 

[James Heard]

Whats our "template", what's it supposed to look like, and what should it have in there and what can it have in there (and by that I mean what should go elsewhere)?

 

[Serpenteye]

Missed a question:

Could we develop demonic, poluting tech, and then convert it to non-poluting,non-demonic tech should the need arise?

Yes, should the need arise, but the cost will probably be slightly greater than researching goodlier technology in the first place (though the benefit of a faster initial climb in the tech-race might be worth it).
However, diabolic (and dirty) technology is compatible with its counterparts. It is possible to have for exaple the first 5 levels diabolic dirty and the next 5 levels untainted and clean. It will all be weighed together.
Naturally, celestials and other paragons of Good will tend to have reservations about factions that use diabolic technology and druids and dryads will dislike polluters. Wether such dislike turns to violence depends on all kinds of factors...

Also, private for Serpanteye
[sblock]
I was talking with William ronnaled last night who was encouraging me to take either Johydee and her mask or Keoghtom as a hero dieaty Johydee could have found herself on Ginsel a long time ago, and found herself in a position several years ago to stop the warring by taking on the guse of one of their leaders. Unfortionatly, she was in this guise so long, she forgot who she was!

Let me know what you think. If you like it, I think Johydee. Hero-God of Deception, Espionage, Protection and her mask would be a good addition to our faction. Likewise, Keoghtom, Hero-God of Secret Pursuits, Natural Alchemy, Extraplanar Exploration would be a good fit, and he could have gotten involved for more obvious reasons... He lives in outerspace, and wants his home to be resonably peacefull
[/sblock]

thanks for the clarafication!

Granted. You can pick one of them as your PC, and Zelda can have the other (if she wants). Artifact included.

Hmm, that's another Keo:2+Johy:2+Mask:1 = 5 Epic PLs for your faction, minus 3 Epic PLs from the list. You'd end up with an equivalent PL of 1380 rPL.

 

[Serpenteye]

Whats our "template", what's it supposed to look like, and what should it have in there and what can it have in there (and by that I mean what should go elsewhere)?

It's just another word for the e-mail I need you to send me where you allocate your power and production. We called it a "template" in the 3rd IR, so I keep thinking of it that way. Perhaps I should make it a Template in fact..:


Template for power-allocation

Industry/Technology:
PP spent to Improve technology: (Diabolic/Non-Diabolic + Polluting/Clean) from (#) to (#)

Territory #1, #PP spent to increase IC from (#) to (#)
#2, ...
#3,
etc.

Sum:

Military:
# rPL demobilize to create # PP.
# PP to create # regular units.
# PP to create # elite units.
# rPL to upgrade # regular units to elite units.
etc.

Sum:

Magic:
# Epic PLs to advance from (#) to (#) in the Magic arms race.

Espionage/Infiltration:
# rPL or # ppts to detect/place spies in territory x.
# rPL or # ppts spent to increase influence in territory x.
# rPL kept in reserve for Counter-Infiltration.

etc.

Sum:

PLs remaining:
.
.
.

Garisons:
.
.
.
.

Special projects, plots and plans:
.
.
.


---

This is just an example and need not be followed slavishly. I appreciate if you include as many of the "from (#) to (#)" and summations as possible, it makes my job easier .

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(Eclavdra speaks, but this time her tone is one of, literally, stupified amazement)

We ... we ... wish to ... wish to ... welcome ... the ... Elves ... of Miranda and ... Elvanian Forest and ... the Mare Mysticum and ... Gigantea and Hyperboria into ... the TEC ... Pact.

(Eclavdra sends a force of drow - under the HEAVIEST GEAS THE DROW CAN LAY ON THEM TO OBEY ELVEN LAW AND RESPECT THE ELVES - to the Realms of Miranda, Marchwards, Elvanian Forest, Gigantea, and Hyperboria.)

(The drow invite ... somehow Eclavdra forces them to invite ... the elves to send a delegation to Erelhi-Cinlu, who Eclavdra swears upon Lolths' name will be protected and respected by the drow.)

(And it seems that, Eclavdra is stunned ... very badly shaken ... this was not expected ... this wasn't even possible ... but the Elves ... they AGREED to the TEC Pact ... the AGREED to a truce with the Drow ...)

-

Kalanyrs' power (The Elves of Miranda/Marchwards/Elvanian Forest/Mare Mysticum Coast, Gigantea, Hyperboria) is now in the TEC Pact.

The Drow, not being Lawful Evil (they are Chaotic Evil, remember) wish to sign the Miranda Pact.
Well, ok, they DON'T wish to sign it, but Eclavdra DOES wish to sign it, and Eclavdra isn't taking crap from her own people about this. Anyone that doesn't like it, had better keep their mouths shut, says Eclavdra, to her own people.

A revolt begins against Eclavdra over the Elves being invited into the TEC Pact, and the drow signing the Pact of Miranda (if the elves allow it.)
Heavy fighting breaks out in a number of drow cities. Insurrection spreads to many others.
Eclavdra moves to crush the revolt with speed and ruthlessness. (I'll have to spend considerable extra PL to maintain control.)

 

[Serpenteye]

The Drow, not being Lawful Evil (they are Chaotic Evil, remember) wish to sign the Miranda Pact.
Well, ok, they DON'T wish to sign it, but Eclavdra DOES wish to sign it, and Eclavdra isn't taking crap from her own people about this. Anyone that doesn't like it, had better keep their mouths shut, says Eclavdra, to her own people.

A revolt begins against Eclavdra over the Elves being invited into the TEC Pact, and the drow signing the Pact of Miranda (if the elves allow it.)
Heavy fighting breaks out in a number of drow cities. Insurrection spreads to many others.
Eclavdra moves to crush the revolt with speed and ruthlessness. (I'll have to spend considerable extra PL to maintain control.)

Ok .

The consequences will be seen on turn 1.