John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
Bumpty-bump-bump-bump.
Iron Kingdoms with Grim Tales
- Thread starter GIBattiste
- Start date
Hjorimir
Adventurer
Karl Green
First Post
I have been thinking about Iron Kingdoms for a while and debating different systems… partly due to the fact that I almost very play straight D&D 3.5 anymore 
Some notes and ideas that I have about Grim Tale – Iron Kingdom are…
I am either going to combine some of the skills (Athletics – Climb/Jump/Swim, Notice – Listen/Spot, Sneak – Hide/Move Silent) OR I am going to give more Skill Points for the classes (I think Strong/Tough are going to bump to 4, Fast/Dedicated 6, Charismatic 8 and Smart 10… Humans still get +1 skill bonus over this amount).
Armor – split Armor Class bonus in halved, round up continues to act as AC bonus, ½ round down is the Damage Reduction bonus.
Magic of the Iron Kingdom.
Spellcaster Talent (Smart, Determined or Charismatic). Note that I am using Wulf’s errata that Spell Burn Resistances can not be increased (but see below) and making it a basic talent so that it can be selected at 1st level. There are 3 basic forms of the Talent AND then I am going to add some additional ones that do different things. The basic Spellcaster Talent allows you can cast spells at 1st Level ability (Damage, Duration, Range) and grants a Spell Caster Bonus of 1 +your Ability Modifier (with a Basic DC to casting a Spell of 10 + the Level). You basic Spell Burn Resistances is the controlling Attribute
1. Divine – the oldest, uses WIS to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. The most common, and most accepted. Grants you two ‘Domains’ that grant you two basic 1st level Spells and then your Wisdom modifier in additional spells when you select this Talent. These Domains most come from one of the ‘Gods’ of Iron Kingdom and grant all the additional Skill bonuses (see Iron Kingdom Character Guild). Divine spellcasters can learn additional spells through prayer and study, generally taking 1 day per Spell Level, with a Spellcraft roll DC 15 +level of the spell. The Diviner must be at a church or other holy place to their deity and it must be approved of by their Superiors (i.e. the GM)
2. Sorcery – the second form of magic to come about in the world and the one that is most fear and associated with ‘witchcraft’, Sorcery. Use the caster’s CHA bonus to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance +1* (Sorcerers seem to be able to better cast spells then almost any other type of caster; hence the ONE break in the rules where ONE type may gain an additional SBR but at a price, see learning new spells). Sorcerers can choose a number of 1st level spells that they know equal to their CHA bonus, from the Sorcerer/Wizard list (remember that Sorcerers in Iron Kingdom prohibited spell list AND my added ones of Rope Trick which is band from all spell lists). They can learn 1 additional spell of their choose each time they raise a level after they have selected the Feat. They can not learn spells any other way, unless they purchase them though Feats or Talents.
3. Wizardry – the latest form of magic to form, used by Wizards and a learned form of magic. Used INT bonus to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. GM grants to Player a list of Spell that he/she may choice from equal to his Intelligence score. They can choose 6 +INT bonus in Cantrips/0-level spells and 2 +INT bonus in 1st level spells when this Talent is first selected. They gain 1 additional spell from their list each time they advance a level AFTER they have selected this Talent. Wizards may learn additional spell if they have access to books, library’s etc. Generally it takes them 1 day per Spell Level with a Spellcraft Roll DC 15 +level of the spell. The GM will determine what spells might be available for the Wizard to learn.
Advanced Spellcasting Talent require the Basic Talents. Add +2 to the casters Spell Caster Bonus and 2 level to the effective caster's level for casting spells, etc AND allows the caster to start casting higher level spells (so the first time you take this Talent mean you cast spells at 3rd level for determining damage, range, effect, etc AND can start to learn 2nd level spells).
All Spell Caster Bonus checks are going to be modified by Armor Check Penalty. I might have a Feat/Talent that allows some (Diviner’s mostly) to wear armor with out the check. No ‘Arcane Check Failure %’ mostly cause I don’t like that system
Then there are some unique talents that can be purchased…
Arcane Mechanic – uses INT for Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. I am still working out the details of everything it will be allowed to do, but mostly is the only form of ‘creation magic’ above the basics (potions and scrolls) in the Iron Kingdom
Fell Caller – Trollkin only, gives the basic Fell-Caller Ability.
Bards and Gun Mages are I am still debating, maybe modified versions of Sorcery but I am still figuring that out.
I will more then likely DROP all Prestige Classes listed in the book, and instead add their Abilities to the Talent list. I want to modify a few Talents also to open it up a bit. Surprise Strike might remain an Advanced Talent, but allow Smart, Fast and Charismatic to take it, etc.
More to come…. BUT I am very much looking forward to Grim Tales new Magic Book as that might help me out
Some notes and ideas that I have about Grim Tale – Iron Kingdom are…
I am either going to combine some of the skills (Athletics – Climb/Jump/Swim, Notice – Listen/Spot, Sneak – Hide/Move Silent) OR I am going to give more Skill Points for the classes (I think Strong/Tough are going to bump to 4, Fast/Dedicated 6, Charismatic 8 and Smart 10… Humans still get +1 skill bonus over this amount).
Armor – split Armor Class bonus in halved, round up continues to act as AC bonus, ½ round down is the Damage Reduction bonus.
Magic of the Iron Kingdom.
Spellcaster Talent (Smart, Determined or Charismatic). Note that I am using Wulf’s errata that Spell Burn Resistances can not be increased (but see below) and making it a basic talent so that it can be selected at 1st level. There are 3 basic forms of the Talent AND then I am going to add some additional ones that do different things. The basic Spellcaster Talent allows you can cast spells at 1st Level ability (Damage, Duration, Range) and grants a Spell Caster Bonus of 1 +your Ability Modifier (with a Basic DC to casting a Spell of 10 + the Level). You basic Spell Burn Resistances is the controlling Attribute
1. Divine – the oldest, uses WIS to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. The most common, and most accepted. Grants you two ‘Domains’ that grant you two basic 1st level Spells and then your Wisdom modifier in additional spells when you select this Talent. These Domains most come from one of the ‘Gods’ of Iron Kingdom and grant all the additional Skill bonuses (see Iron Kingdom Character Guild). Divine spellcasters can learn additional spells through prayer and study, generally taking 1 day per Spell Level, with a Spellcraft roll DC 15 +level of the spell. The Diviner must be at a church or other holy place to their deity and it must be approved of by their Superiors (i.e. the GM)
2. Sorcery – the second form of magic to come about in the world and the one that is most fear and associated with ‘witchcraft’, Sorcery. Use the caster’s CHA bonus to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance +1* (Sorcerers seem to be able to better cast spells then almost any other type of caster; hence the ONE break in the rules where ONE type may gain an additional SBR but at a price, see learning new spells). Sorcerers can choose a number of 1st level spells that they know equal to their CHA bonus, from the Sorcerer/Wizard list (remember that Sorcerers in Iron Kingdom prohibited spell list AND my added ones of Rope Trick which is band from all spell lists). They can learn 1 additional spell of their choose each time they raise a level after they have selected the Feat. They can not learn spells any other way, unless they purchase them though Feats or Talents.
3. Wizardry – the latest form of magic to form, used by Wizards and a learned form of magic. Used INT bonus to determine Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. GM grants to Player a list of Spell that he/she may choice from equal to his Intelligence score. They can choose 6 +INT bonus in Cantrips/0-level spells and 2 +INT bonus in 1st level spells when this Talent is first selected. They gain 1 additional spell from their list each time they advance a level AFTER they have selected this Talent. Wizards may learn additional spell if they have access to books, library’s etc. Generally it takes them 1 day per Spell Level with a Spellcraft Roll DC 15 +level of the spell. The GM will determine what spells might be available for the Wizard to learn.
Advanced Spellcasting Talent require the Basic Talents. Add +2 to the casters Spell Caster Bonus and 2 level to the effective caster's level for casting spells, etc AND allows the caster to start casting higher level spells (so the first time you take this Talent mean you cast spells at 3rd level for determining damage, range, effect, etc AND can start to learn 2nd level spells).
All Spell Caster Bonus checks are going to be modified by Armor Check Penalty. I might have a Feat/Talent that allows some (Diviner’s mostly) to wear armor with out the check. No ‘Arcane Check Failure %’ mostly cause I don’t like that system
Then there are some unique talents that can be purchased…
Arcane Mechanic – uses INT for Spell Caster Bonus and basic Spell Burn Resistance. I am still working out the details of everything it will be allowed to do, but mostly is the only form of ‘creation magic’ above the basics (potions and scrolls) in the Iron Kingdom
Fell Caller – Trollkin only, gives the basic Fell-Caller Ability.
Bards and Gun Mages are I am still debating, maybe modified versions of Sorcery but I am still figuring that out.
I will more then likely DROP all Prestige Classes listed in the book, and instead add their Abilities to the Talent list. I want to modify a few Talents also to open it up a bit. Surprise Strike might remain an Advanced Talent, but allow Smart, Fast and Charismatic to take it, etc.
More to come…. BUT I am very much looking forward to Grim Tales new Magic Book as that might help me out
Last edited:
GlassJaw
Hero
I'm not sure why you feel a need to do this but my guess is that it's because there are SO many new skills in IK. My advice? Drop or combine the skills in IK, not the ones in GT.
I've started to read the Ik stuff and while the world is awesome and there's a lot of cool new stuff, I haven't been thrilled with the mechanics overall. Like I said, there are just WAY too many skills, some of which are redundant. I don't like some of the firearm rules either. Heck, you need a skill check to reload a firearm AND it provokes and AoO. One or the other is fine IMO.
I don't know, the jury's still out but I could see myself using GT mostly as-is and converting some of the IK class abilities to talents (which would require the most work actually).
Unfortunately, it might not be available any time soon. :\
Karl Green
First Post
Yea I am a tinker at heart and often play around with the rules. The cool things about Grim Tales is that they have a lot of the ‘Optional’ rules in there for how deadly or cinematic you might want your game to be.
I just want magic to feel a bit different, so that a cleric is different from a sorcerer who is different from a wizard… not major differences but little ones.
And I agree with your 100% about Iron Kingdom… when I read the fluff I think WOW this is such a cool setting and then when I read the mechanics I think WHAT the #$@! were they thinking?? I am not sure about the guns myself and I will play around with it before I run the game. I have played a good Warhammer game using Grim Tales that included firearms and it worked out really well, so I might just import them over more or less (most guns did 2dX damage and crit on 20/x3, AC/DR bonuses from Armor were halved, round down)
I just want magic to feel a bit different, so that a cleric is different from a sorcerer who is different from a wizard… not major differences but little ones.
And I agree with your 100% about Iron Kingdom… when I read the fluff I think WOW this is such a cool setting and then when I read the mechanics I think WHAT the #$@! were they thinking?? I am not sure about the guns myself and I will play around with it before I run the game. I have played a good Warhammer game using Grim Tales that included firearms and it worked out really well, so I might just import them over more or less (most guns did 2dX damage and crit on 20/x3, AC/DR bonuses from Armor were halved, round down)
Skywalker
Adventurer
I don't know if this is useful but with my True 20 conversion of IK I also found these to be issues.
My solution with skills was to combine many of the IK skills with those in True 20 and I added to the standard list:
† Alchemy (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (alchemy) & (bone grinding).
† Command (Cha) – new skill covered in the Black Company Setting.
† Craft (Int) Trained Only – covers all mundane Craft Skills
† Knowledge (science) (Int) Trained Only
† Mechanika (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (mechanika)
† Technology (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (clockwork), (gunsmithing), (steam engine) & (tools) and Disable Device.
† Warcraft (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (canoneer), (demolitions) & (small arms) and Jack Handling.
For magic, I did a three way split with arcane (wizard), arcane (sorcerer) and divine magic.
Arcane magic is versatile in that a mage can learn any spell. However, a mage may use no spells untrained and abuse of the power could lead to corruption (which brought the mage to the attention of Infernals).
Sorcerers had more powerful spells and they could do so whilst in either the Warrior or Expert Role, allowing sorcerers to be more rounded. However, their magic had the good chance of going wild and knocking them unconscious.
Divine magic is focussed on the God's domains. Clerics can use any spell from their God's domains untrained. They don'tt suffer from the propsect of corruption using their spells (though they needed to follow the tenets of their faith). However, Clerics are limited only to those spells condoned by their God. Also, Divine magic can't be used for creating mechanika.
Hope that helps.
My solution with skills was to combine many of the IK skills with those in True 20 and I added to the standard list:
† Alchemy (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (alchemy) & (bone grinding).
† Command (Cha) – new skill covered in the Black Company Setting.
† Craft (Int) Trained Only – covers all mundane Craft Skills
† Knowledge (science) (Int) Trained Only
† Mechanika (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (mechanika)
† Technology (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (clockwork), (gunsmithing), (steam engine) & (tools) and Disable Device.
† Warcraft (Int) Trained Only – covers Craft (canoneer), (demolitions) & (small arms) and Jack Handling.
For magic, I did a three way split with arcane (wizard), arcane (sorcerer) and divine magic.
Arcane magic is versatile in that a mage can learn any spell. However, a mage may use no spells untrained and abuse of the power could lead to corruption (which brought the mage to the attention of Infernals).
Sorcerers had more powerful spells and they could do so whilst in either the Warrior or Expert Role, allowing sorcerers to be more rounded. However, their magic had the good chance of going wild and knocking them unconscious.
Divine magic is focussed on the God's domains. Clerics can use any spell from their God's domains untrained. They don'tt suffer from the propsect of corruption using their spells (though they needed to follow the tenets of their faith). However, Clerics are limited only to those spells condoned by their God. Also, Divine magic can't be used for creating mechanika.
Hope that helps.
Karl Green
First Post
Skywalker said:
Wow those are all GOOD ideas... I have debated about using True20 also for Iron Kingdom but most of the players are not very familar with M&M, Blue Rose, etc and so I kind of wanted a more 'familar' ruleset for them... but
Skywalker
Adventurer
Karl Green said:Wow those are all GOOD ideas... I have debated about using True20 also for Iron Kingdom but most of the players are not very familar with M&M, Blue Rose, etc and so I kind of wanted a more 'familar' ruleset for them... but
The skill ideas should all be easily transferable to Grim Tales. Honestly, the extra IK skills quickly got out of hand and grouping them together including Craft etc made a lot a sense.
As for Magic I think distinguishing arcane magic and divine magic on three grounds is helpful:
- versatile vs focussed
- learned vs innate
- corrputing vs strictures.
I am not sure how to do that in Grim Tales and would interested to see any ideas.
As for True 20, it is a little different from M&M (and even BR to be truly honest). It is a setting free "fantasy" rules lite system. I have a conversion pdf for IK True 20 if you want to check it out.
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