Irresistable Spell
- Thread starter Cheiromancer
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Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Elder-Basilisk said:
I haven't heard a whole lot of discussion of the KoK books. Can you name some of the overpowered feats that appear there?
As for Irresistable, I agree with the consensus- +4 is way too low. Even +6 is probably not enough.
Hammerhead
Explorer
Beowulf said:
Daze has a HD limit. Not exactly the best spell to use at higher levels.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
First, I should say that there's some good stuff in the KoK players guide. However, there's a lot of poorly thought out, overpowered stuff as well. Much of that is potentially game-breaking. (Most of it is also in the feats section).
Two examples:
Channel Positive Energy: This grants clerics of different gods the ability to do something different with their turn attempts. Some of these are useless (The Knight of the Gods allows clerics to spend a turn attempt and grant people in a small area their cha bonus to will saves vs. fear for several rounds/caster level) but some of them are ridiculously overpowered. One of them, for instance, inflicts the cleric's wisdom bonus in negative levels to a target within either 30 or 60 feet. This can't take the character's level below 1 but it's still roughly equivalent to enervation or energy drain (depending upon the wisdom bonus) at will. Sure it goes away after ten minutes but by that time, any character so afflicted will be dead--considering that all their saves are likely to be negative and their attack bonus will be equal to their strength bonus +1 if they're lucky.
Miser With Magic: With a spellcraft check (DC 10+2xspell level) a wizard or sorceror can avoid expending a prepared spell or spell slot when casting a spell. Prerequisite clvl 7.
This essentially eliminates the difference between wizards and sorcerors since by 7th level, a wizard will never fail this on 1st or second level spells (spellcraft=+14 (with an effective 18 int)). Even fourth level spells will usually be retained. Thus instead of being able to cast two or three fourth level spells, the wizard will usually be able to toss off nine to twelve before failing his checks. Since skill bonusses increase more quickly than spell levels, this will only get worse as the wizard increases with level. I'd expect to see 11th level wizards tossing a dozen disintegrate spells in a single encounter and not thinking anything of it.
Seeing those feats was almost enough to convince me not to play Living Kalamar. It was enough to make me wonder if they really have an editor.
Two examples:
Channel Positive Energy: This grants clerics of different gods the ability to do something different with their turn attempts. Some of these are useless (The Knight of the Gods allows clerics to spend a turn attempt and grant people in a small area their cha bonus to will saves vs. fear for several rounds/caster level) but some of them are ridiculously overpowered. One of them, for instance, inflicts the cleric's wisdom bonus in negative levels to a target within either 30 or 60 feet. This can't take the character's level below 1 but it's still roughly equivalent to enervation or energy drain (depending upon the wisdom bonus) at will. Sure it goes away after ten minutes but by that time, any character so afflicted will be dead--considering that all their saves are likely to be negative and their attack bonus will be equal to their strength bonus +1 if they're lucky.
Miser With Magic: With a spellcraft check (DC 10+2xspell level) a wizard or sorceror can avoid expending a prepared spell or spell slot when casting a spell. Prerequisite clvl 7.
This essentially eliminates the difference between wizards and sorcerors since by 7th level, a wizard will never fail this on 1st or second level spells (spellcraft=+14 (with an effective 18 int)). Even fourth level spells will usually be retained. Thus instead of being able to cast two or three fourth level spells, the wizard will usually be able to toss off nine to twelve before failing his checks. Since skill bonusses increase more quickly than spell levels, this will only get worse as the wizard increases with level. I'd expect to see 11th level wizards tossing a dozen disintegrate spells in a single encounter and not thinking anything of it.
Seeing those feats was almost enough to convince me not to play Living Kalamar. It was enough to make me wonder if they really have an editor.
Cheiromancer said:
Totally broken.
For damage-dealing spells, it's fair. But it's the save or *insert nasty effect* spells that should just how absurd this feat is compared to normal spells.
Let's compare an Irresistable Hold Person with an 8th level Otto's Irresistable Dance.
Level: 6/7 for IHP, 8 for OID. One up to IHP.
Effect: IHP- paralyses, allowing coup de grace. Otto's- makes enemy vulnerable, but not dead yet. Another big one up to IHP.
Range: IHP- Medium. OID-Touch. IHP wins again
So. This feat allows a better effect at longer range, no need for a touch attack AND at a lower level. Not broken?
Of course, I needn't continue. Irresistable Dominate (even more fun because you can make them violate their alignment and not fear subsequent saves)? Irresistable Polymorph? Irresistable Phantasmal Killer? Irresistable Suggestion? Irresistable Confusion (hey, instant encounter winner)?
The number of no save spells are few and far between. Those that aren't simply direct-damage tend to have caveats (100hp limit for PWK), or be of lesser effect (OID vs., say, Hold) and be of ultra-high level. To say that you can slap +4 levels on any spell and make it Irresistable, is, if you pardon the pun, an irresistable feat for the wizardly player: and an irresponsible one for the DM.
For damage-dealing spells, it's fair. But it's the save or *insert nasty effect* spells that should just how absurd this feat is compared to normal spells.
Let's compare an Irresistable Hold Person with an 8th level Otto's Irresistable Dance.
Level: 6/7 for IHP, 8 for OID. One up to IHP.
Effect: IHP- paralyses, allowing coup de grace. Otto's- makes enemy vulnerable, but not dead yet. Another big one up to IHP.
Range: IHP- Medium. OID-Touch. IHP wins again
So. This feat allows a better effect at longer range, no need for a touch attack AND at a lower level. Not broken?
Of course, I needn't continue. Irresistable Dominate (even more fun because you can make them violate their alignment and not fear subsequent saves)? Irresistable Polymorph? Irresistable Phantasmal Killer? Irresistable Suggestion? Irresistable Confusion (hey, instant encounter winner)?
The number of no save spells are few and far between. Those that aren't simply direct-damage tend to have caveats (100hp limit for PWK), or be of lesser effect (OID vs., say, Hold) and be of ultra-high level. To say that you can slap +4 levels on any spell and make it Irresistable, is, if you pardon the pun, an irresistable feat for the wizardly player: and an irresponsible one for the DM.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Someone on this board once suggested a Feat that I absolutely loved, I think they called it "Spell Finesse" that was a sort of Power Attack for magic. Basically, once you took it, you could (at time of casting) deduct 2 caster levels (for duration, damage, range, SR, etc.) to increase Save DC by 1. You could only use it a number of times equal to the spell level, and there were a couple of other things, but it was a nice concept, especially since spells with damage caps (Fireball) tended to leave you with extra Caster Levels to spare.
Now, as to Irresistible Spell, the only way it could be balanced is if you said it only affects those spells that Empower Spell affects.
Now, as to Irresistible Spell, the only way it could be balanced is if you said it only affects those spells that Empower Spell affects.
Happiest_Sadist
First Post
Even +6 is broken.
Compare an irrestiable hold person (8th level cleric spell) with Otto's irrestisable dance.
Irresistable Charm person (7th level)
Irresistable suggestion (9th level)
Irresistable empowered ray of enfeeblement (9th level)
Broken even at +8.
Compare an irrestiable hold person (8th level cleric spell) with Otto's irrestisable dance.
Irresistable Charm person (7th level)
Irresistable suggestion (9th level)
Irresistable empowered ray of enfeeblement (9th level)
Broken even at +8.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Well, suppose it only eliminated the save vs. damaging effects. Fireballs, lightning bolts and Cones of Cold.
Then +4 would be quite innocuous, don't you think?
Then +4 would be quite innocuous, don't you think?
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