SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS
Explorer
No, then it is very week... enpower spell is better.
Irresistable Spell
- Thread starter Cheiromancer
- Start date
No, then it is very week... enpower spell is better.
Jack Haggerty
First Post
Hammerhead said:
So use Irresistible Color Sprays instead. One level higher, area effect for multiple targets, no real HD limit and increased effectiveness against low-HD creatures (possibly blinded or unconscious), plus the targets are truly dazed (+2 to hit them, and they loses their Dex bonus) for one round instead of just being unable to take an action.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Not so. Having no save is a very big plus for area effect damage spells. Double empowered spells typically have somewhat anemic saves and will often end up doing normal damage (since the doubled damage is halved (down to normal) on a successful save). However, there are a significant number of times when they will end up doing less than normal damage.
Against an energy vulnerable creature, it can still save for half damage. If it has no save, however, it takes double damage.
Against rogues, monks, familiars, or any character with evasion (or worse yet, improved evasion) a successful save means they take no damage. Worse yet, their saves are usually good enough that they make them. The improved evasion characters and creatures (paladin mounts, familiars, etc) take half damage even on a failed save. A spell with no save will inflict full damage to all of these creatures (doing as much damage to the improved evasion characters as a double empowered fireball would have).
Against Templars and other characters with mettle, no save would also work wonders for fort save spells like inflict wounds spells.
Against an energy vulnerable creature, it can still save for half damage. If it has no save, however, it takes double damage.
Against rogues, monks, familiars, or any character with evasion (or worse yet, improved evasion) a successful save means they take no damage. Worse yet, their saves are usually good enough that they make them. The improved evasion characters and creatures (paladin mounts, familiars, etc) take half damage even on a failed save. A spell with no save will inflict full damage to all of these creatures (doing as much damage to the improved evasion characters as a double empowered fireball would have).
Against Templars and other characters with mettle, no save would also work wonders for fort save spells like inflict wounds spells.
SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS said:
Last edited:
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Elder-Basilisk,
I looked up the Miser with Magic feat, and it is limited to a number of spell levels per day equal to the caster's primary ability bonus. An Int 18 wizard could get an extra 4th level spell each day, or two 2nd level spells, or whatever.
It kinda reminds me of the bonus spells that spell-casting prodigy will give you. Of course, you don't get a +1 to all your DC's; you also don't have to take Miser with Magic at first level. And spell-casting prodigy is quite powerful.
But still, it suggests that MwM is not completely unreasonable.
When my campaign starts up again in a few weeks, I intend to allow MwM, and the (nerfed) Irresistable Spell feat.
I looked up the Miser with Magic feat, and it is limited to a number of spell levels per day equal to the caster's primary ability bonus. An Int 18 wizard could get an extra 4th level spell each day, or two 2nd level spells, or whatever.
It kinda reminds me of the bonus spells that spell-casting prodigy will give you. Of course, you don't get a +1 to all your DC's; you also don't have to take Miser with Magic at first level. And spell-casting prodigy is quite powerful.
But still, it suggests that MwM is not completely unreasonable.
When my campaign starts up again in a few weeks, I intend to allow MwM, and the (nerfed) Irresistable Spell feat.
Errata for the KoKPG
There have been several postings of errata for the Player's Guide over on the Kenzer Boards (Kalamar Errata)
Here are a few of the relevant ones:
There is quite a bit more there, mostly clarifications on things, but also including the list of the weapons of deities.
Hope this helps.
There have been several postings of errata for the Player's Guide over on the Kenzer Boards (Kalamar Errata)
Here are a few of the relevant ones:
- The feat Miser with Magic should have the words "per day" appended to the end of it.
- The feat Unerring Strike applies only to melee attacks. In addition, the glossary description of it is incorrect. The reduced damage and increased hit bonus apply to the same attack.
- Feat: Expertise and Unerring strike Combo: If you had a BAB of +5 or higher, you could reduce your damage by 5 to add 5 to your to hit with Unerring Strike, and then reduce your to hit by 5 (for a total of +0) to increase your AC by 5. [Noah Kolman]
There is quite a bit more there, mostly clarifications on things, but also including the list of the weapons of deities.
Hope this helps.
Generally +4 for no save (for 1/2 reflex saves) is pretty dang weak.
For most cases even maximize at +3 is generally better except in specific circumstances (cold/fire type and evasion).
60pts save for 30 (fireball 10th level)
or 35 average no save.
Could do 5 points less but could so 25 points more at 1 level less.
Empower x2 is much better.
I would make it +2 or +3 at worst for your (nerferd version).
It can be useful but if the opponent would have failed their save anyways it is less useful (obvious statement i know)
IMC...
We have Hunting Spell which is at +2 and removes a save for spells that have 1/2 reflex. It was taken by a player and seems to be in balance.
Of course I play in a game where many of the mechanics are somewhat different (grim'n'gritty combat rules and evasion was changed...allows 2 seperate rolls to save for 1/2 damage instead of 1 roll for no damage).
Apoptosis
For most cases even maximize at +3 is generally better except in specific circumstances (cold/fire type and evasion).
60pts save for 30 (fireball 10th level)
or 35 average no save.
Could do 5 points less but could so 25 points more at 1 level less.
Empower x2 is much better.
I would make it +2 or +3 at worst for your (nerferd version).
It can be useful but if the opponent would have failed their save anyways it is less useful (obvious statement i know)
IMC...
We have Hunting Spell which is at +2 and removes a save for spells that have 1/2 reflex. It was taken by a player and seems to be in balance.
Of course I play in a game where many of the mechanics are somewhat different (grim'n'gritty combat rules and evasion was changed...allows 2 seperate rolls to save for 1/2 damage instead of 1 roll for no damage).
Apoptosis
Baron Von StarBlade
Registered User
I've noticed that people keep noting how Powerful an Irresistible Hold Person is compared to an Otto's Irresistible Dance but it seems you are forgetting that Hold Person only works on Medium or smaller creatures. Otto's Irresistible dance works on any living creature. Therefore you'd need need to use Hold Monster (6th level for Clerics 5th for Wizards/Sorcs) assuming you are using the +6 variant that would mean both spells would be Epic Level.
I will admit that an Irresistible Phantasmal Killer is pretty mean though.
I will admit that an Irresistible Phantasmal Killer is pretty mean though.
comrade raoul
Explorer
Accept no substitutes? [/tarantino]
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
It is interesting to compare 8th level ottos irrestable dance with tashas hideous laughter. Both are enchantment compulsions.
Otto
8th
touch
no save
2-5 rounds
Can't do anything, can't use shields, attackers get +4 hit. Reflex saves only on a 20.
Tasha
2nd
close range
will negates
1-3 rounds
Can't do anything, attackers get +4 hit, reflex saves unaffected. Doesn't work on creatures with animal intelligence, other creature "types" get +4 to save.
Quite apart from the embarrassment angle of both these spells (the dancing Balor? the Dragon rolling on the floor with laughter?) how would an irresistable Tasha' spell be at +6 levels, to make it the same level?
It would have the safety of range, doesn't last as long and doesn't nerf their reflex saves; also doesn't affect animals. Is this equivalent? It doesn't seem far off, actually...
Cheers
(p.s. this is not to say that I think it should be available as a blanket +6 for all spells! Just an interesting comparison.)
Otto
8th
touch
no save
2-5 rounds
Can't do anything, can't use shields, attackers get +4 hit. Reflex saves only on a 20.
Tasha
2nd
close range
will negates
1-3 rounds
Can't do anything, attackers get +4 hit, reflex saves unaffected. Doesn't work on creatures with animal intelligence, other creature "types" get +4 to save.
Quite apart from the embarrassment angle of both these spells (the dancing Balor? the Dragon rolling on the floor with laughter?) how would an irresistable Tasha' spell be at +6 levels, to make it the same level?
It would have the safety of range, doesn't last as long and doesn't nerf their reflex saves; also doesn't affect animals. Is this equivalent? It doesn't seem far off, actually...
Cheers
(p.s. this is not to say that I think it should be available as a blanket +6 for all spells! Just an interesting comparison.)
