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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8716545" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Completely agreed. 4e launched at least a full year too soon, it needed heavy adjustment to its presentation, the SC rules were sadly half-baked (mostly because they were something super new for D&D in general), the original Stealth rules sucked,* the MM1/2 math was slow and grindy, the first two major adventures (Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows) were absolutely horrendous, the "expertise" feats were bad and should either never have existed or should have only been the version released with Essentials, etc.4e had mistakes and missteps. Some of them, loath as I am to admit it, were in the rules. Many of them weren't the rules themselves, but the presentation thereof. Several more were poor management decisions, such as the switch to the GSL (trying to put the OGL lightning back in the bottle--it blew up in their faces very, very badly), since that's literally what created Pathfinder 1e.** A few were problems beyond any ability for WotC to control, though unfortunately these were rather painful, like the horrific murder-suicide on their digital tools team which destroyed any hope of fulfilling their digital tools goals, or the 2007 recession which led to Borders (a prime seller of D&D products) completely shutting down all stores in 2009.*At least that part of 4e was fully traditional! 5e's Stealth rules also needed updates, and IIRC Stealth was one of the drivers of the 3.5e revision.**If 4e had kept the OGL and supported Paizo as the official 3rd-party publisher of 4e like it had been for 3e, PF1e straight-up never would have existed, or it would have existed in a far more muted form with Paizo, most likely, producing simultaneous content for both 3e and 4e. Alas, we'll never truly know.</blockquote>

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