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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8720132" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Sure. But it's exactly that "we'll never know" that is the problem.We have a history that happened. Both claims, "it was mostly due to coincidence, innate qualities played a small part" and "it was almost exclusively incredibly good/near-perfect innate qualities, coincidence was mostly irrelevant" are claims about speculative alternate histories about which we have no data. People continue to cast the former claim, no matter how mildly stated, as both an extreme hostile attack on 5e, and as requiring huge and conclusive data set. By contrast, the claim that 5e was literally actually perfect, or so close as to be essentially so, gets nothing but nods and approval, despite being dramatically more extreme than all but the most strident critics.And people wonder why critics of 5e don't really feel like anyone takes them seriously. This isn't even the first time I've heard statements like 5e being "98% perfect." Back when 5e was still pretty new, I had someone say to my (digital) face that it was impossible for anyone to dislike 5e. I admit, at the time, my response to that statement was...unwise. But I hope that the example illustrates how pro-5e voices have been, in their exuberance, making such extreme claims and expecting (and, sadly, usually getting) approval and agreement despite the obvious issues with said extreme claims.To be clear, that extreme claim was:Just want it quoted in its entirety so I'm not at risk of twisting words to something other than what they were.I did not claim you did, but you certainly didn't speak up when others did, either. If you ignore people repeatedly making extreme claims that favor your position and hound after burdens of proof from anyone making even mild criticism of your position, it is not hard to make the leap that you aren't really engaging with the discussion, just slapping down anyone who disagrees with you. Which is, more or less, what I've seen from most fans of 5e. It isn't enough to like 5e, or even love it; others must not be allowed to even criticize it without the kind of data set you'd use to prove the existence of a previously-unknown subatomic particle. But anyone making foolishly extreme praise of 5e? Sure, whatever, they're on board with the program, no need to react or correct them.</blockquote>

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