Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is a CR 30 monster a suitable challenge for a 20th level party?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Lancelot" data-source="post: 6771559" data-attributes="member: 30022"><p>Depends on the nature of the monster and the nature of the party.</p><p></p><p>The problem in any kind of level-based RPG is that high level parties are so diverse. It's very difficult to design a "challenging boss fight" that will suit all possible contenders. When designing a CR1 creature, you don't usually need to worry about flying invisible fire-immune PCs who can cast <em>forcecage</em>. Those abilities aren't usually available to your average 1st level party. But things get wacky at higher levels.</p><p></p><p>Take Imix, from the recent Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. Is your party immune to fire? Good news for you - you're about to have a cake-walk encounter. Resistant to fire? Expect a tough fight; yeah, you only take half damage from most of his stuff, but even half damage is going to be dangerous. No fire resistance? Well... good campaign. Better luck next time.</p><p></p><p>Same is true for the tarrasque. If the whole party can fly and has ranged attacks, the DM needs to come up with special tactics or environmental conditions to give the poor old Big T a chance. If, on the other hand, the party is trapped in an enclosed space with no way to escape its reach, then things are going to be much rougher.</p><p></p><p>My advice is to aim for "hard", and then pull punches if necessary. </p><p></p><p>If you go with the tarrasque, set the fight in a location where flight and teleportation can't easily take the party out of reach. Then, if they're struggling too much against it, choose a few rounds of sub-optimal tactics to give them a chance to "catch up". Target the PC with the most HP, rather than the injured guy that you can definitely punch out with a hit. Be more accommodating in terms of their wacky ideas ("The tarrasque is bogged down in the <em>web</em> for a round, and doesn't get to attack!"). "Forget" it's lair actions or some of its powers for a couple rounds.</p><p></p><p>If you go with Tiamat, ensure the battle is in a huge open area where she can use her flight to maximum effect. Refuse to engage PCs on the ground. Use ranged breath weapons. Add in some innocent civilians for added drama (she attacks the party's home city; their friends and families are at risk!). Again, if they're struggling, you can pull punches. Tiamat spends a round or two frying orphanages or killing a beloved friend of the party (revenge!). She gets over-confident and decides to land to finish off the PCs, exposing herself to melee attacks.</p><p></p><p>If you go the opposite route (Tiamat in an enclosed space where she can't escape or keep her distance; the tarraque in open air where the party can just fly off and finish it at range), you run the risk of creating an anticlimactic fight where a single party tactic might be able to take apart your boss monster with little challenge. But, ultimately, you need to figure out ahead of time what would constitute a unique challenge for <em>your</em> group. By now, you should already know what they can handle easily, and what causes them real problems.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lancelot, post: 6771559, member: 30022"] Depends on the nature of the monster and the nature of the party. The problem in any kind of level-based RPG is that high level parties are so diverse. It's very difficult to design a "challenging boss fight" that will suit all possible contenders. When designing a CR1 creature, you don't usually need to worry about flying invisible fire-immune PCs who can cast [I]forcecage[/I]. Those abilities aren't usually available to your average 1st level party. But things get wacky at higher levels. Take Imix, from the recent Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. Is your party immune to fire? Good news for you - you're about to have a cake-walk encounter. Resistant to fire? Expect a tough fight; yeah, you only take half damage from most of his stuff, but even half damage is going to be dangerous. No fire resistance? Well... good campaign. Better luck next time. Same is true for the tarrasque. If the whole party can fly and has ranged attacks, the DM needs to come up with special tactics or environmental conditions to give the poor old Big T a chance. If, on the other hand, the party is trapped in an enclosed space with no way to escape its reach, then things are going to be much rougher. My advice is to aim for "hard", and then pull punches if necessary. If you go with the tarrasque, set the fight in a location where flight and teleportation can't easily take the party out of reach. Then, if they're struggling too much against it, choose a few rounds of sub-optimal tactics to give them a chance to "catch up". Target the PC with the most HP, rather than the injured guy that you can definitely punch out with a hit. Be more accommodating in terms of their wacky ideas ("The tarrasque is bogged down in the [I]web[/I] for a round, and doesn't get to attack!"). "Forget" it's lair actions or some of its powers for a couple rounds. If you go with Tiamat, ensure the battle is in a huge open area where she can use her flight to maximum effect. Refuse to engage PCs on the ground. Use ranged breath weapons. Add in some innocent civilians for added drama (she attacks the party's home city; their friends and families are at risk!). Again, if they're struggling, you can pull punches. Tiamat spends a round or two frying orphanages or killing a beloved friend of the party (revenge!). She gets over-confident and decides to land to finish off the PCs, exposing herself to melee attacks. If you go the opposite route (Tiamat in an enclosed space where she can't escape or keep her distance; the tarraque in open air where the party can just fly off and finish it at range), you run the risk of creating an anticlimactic fight where a single party tactic might be able to take apart your boss monster with little challenge. But, ultimately, you need to figure out ahead of time what would constitute a unique challenge for [I]your[/I] group. By now, you should already know what they can handle easily, and what causes them real problems. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is a CR 30 monster a suitable challenge for a 20th level party?
Top