D&D 5E Is a CR 30 monster a suitable challenge for a 20th level party?

plancktum

First Post
Hi,

in my current campaign I've decided to comply with the wish of my players, which wanted to play all to way up to level 20.

So... I wanted to make the last level end fight a big thing. So I've wondered if a CR 30 creature (which means Tiamat or a Tarrasque) is a good challenge for a 20th level party.
Maybe CR 30 is still too easy for a good 20th level party?

Since I have no experience on high level play, maybe some of you could give me some insight?

At first sight I would say it would be a very hard fight, but a possible one. Maybe if it is initially to hard make a few quests before the fight, so that the PCs could acquire magical items and so on.

best regards
 

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Valmarius

First Post
The basic theory states that a CR 30 monster is a moderate difficulty for four level 30 PCs.
So the typical answer for a group of level 20 PCs would be no... However.

That difficulty is going to be affected by several factors, some of which have been mentioned.
Larger Party size.
Magic Items.
Time to prepare, call in favours, set defenses, gather allies, etc.
Individual PCs level of optimization.

With the right set up I think it would work.
 

Prism

Explorer
I would ignore CR at this level. You need to look at the monster and compare against the party. So for example if the party fights Tiamat and isn't prepared they probably don't stand a chance. The only realistic way to attack her in melee is by flying as she can attack from reach and has no reason to land. In addition she dishes out over 150 points of elemental damage from breath weapons in an enormous area (up to 90 diameter at its end) - these alone could kill a few party members before they can even act in combat. She is immune to most magic spells and the party will spend the entire combat frightened most likely unless resistant to fear. With research and preparation these can all be dealt with.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Yes, it's a fine challenge. At 150% of party level, it is similar to a 2nd level party fighting a CR3 creature or a 4th level party facing CR6. There will definitely be a chance that either the party can't defeat it without additional help (magic items can be a great benefit here, or an army backing up the heroes) and that one or several party members may be killed outright while facing it, but that's what heroes are made of!
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
CR ain't a great guide past about level 15 (and well before then its usefulness starts to degrade a lot.)

But on a lark, I'd say that sure a level 30 monster makes a fine BBEG for level 20 guys, assuming you're fine killing a PC here and there.
 

Lancelot

Adventurer
Depends on the nature of the monster and the nature of the party.

The problem in any kind of level-based RPG is that high level parties are so diverse. It's very difficult to design a "challenging boss fight" that will suit all possible contenders. When designing a CR1 creature, you don't usually need to worry about flying invisible fire-immune PCs who can cast forcecage. Those abilities aren't usually available to your average 1st level party. But things get wacky at higher levels.

Take Imix, from the recent Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. Is your party immune to fire? Good news for you - you're about to have a cake-walk encounter. Resistant to fire? Expect a tough fight; yeah, you only take half damage from most of his stuff, but even half damage is going to be dangerous. No fire resistance? Well... good campaign. Better luck next time.

Same is true for the tarrasque. If the whole party can fly and has ranged attacks, the DM needs to come up with special tactics or environmental conditions to give the poor old Big T a chance. If, on the other hand, the party is trapped in an enclosed space with no way to escape its reach, then things are going to be much rougher.

My advice is to aim for "hard", and then pull punches if necessary.

If you go with the tarrasque, set the fight in a location where flight and teleportation can't easily take the party out of reach. Then, if they're struggling too much against it, choose a few rounds of sub-optimal tactics to give them a chance to "catch up". Target the PC with the most HP, rather than the injured guy that you can definitely punch out with a hit. Be more accommodating in terms of their wacky ideas ("The tarrasque is bogged down in the web for a round, and doesn't get to attack!"). "Forget" it's lair actions or some of its powers for a couple rounds.

If you go with Tiamat, ensure the battle is in a huge open area where she can use her flight to maximum effect. Refuse to engage PCs on the ground. Use ranged breath weapons. Add in some innocent civilians for added drama (she attacks the party's home city; their friends and families are at risk!). Again, if they're struggling, you can pull punches. Tiamat spends a round or two frying orphanages or killing a beloved friend of the party (revenge!). She gets over-confident and decides to land to finish off the PCs, exposing herself to melee attacks.

If you go the opposite route (Tiamat in an enclosed space where she can't escape or keep her distance; the tarraque in open air where the party can just fly off and finish it at range), you run the risk of creating an anticlimactic fight where a single party tactic might be able to take apart your boss monster with little challenge. But, ultimately, you need to figure out ahead of time what would constitute a unique challenge for your group. By now, you should already know what they can handle easily, and what causes them real problems.
 

Take Imix, from the recent Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. Is your party immune to fire? Good news for you - you're about to have a cake-walk encounter. Resistant to fire? Expect a tough fight; yeah, you only take half damage from most of his stuff, but even half damage is going to be dangerous. No fire resistance? Well... good campaign. Better luck next time.
.

I don't think it's possible for characters to gain immunity to fire damage. But anyway I actually gave Imix a little feature to show how he could have dominated the Elemental Plane of Fire. Pretty much an ability that makes it so that Immunity to Fire only counts as Resistence to fire when the source is imix. Pretty much saying that Imix's flames are so hot they can burn fire itself.
 
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Huntsman57

First Post
Four lv 20 PCs that are experienced and well kitted out with magical items would have a hell of a fight on their hands, but I it's doable.

I've always found CRs to be rather conservative. What the game calls a "moderate challenge" is something that the players will basically be able to snooze through without any real degree of challenge.
 

Valmarius

First Post
Four lv 20 PCs that are experienced and well kitted out with magical items would have a hell of a fight on their hands, but I it's doable.

I've always found CRs to be rather conservative. What the game calls a "moderate challenge" is something that the players will basically be able to snooze through without any real degree of challenge.

I think Moderate is essentially: Not life-threatening, but will cost the party some resources, whether that be Hit Dice, Ki points, Spell Slots, etc.
By themselves they aren't anything terrifying, but they play an important part of the "Adventuring Day".
 

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